Justice For Sale..... "How Much do we Budget?"

[TulsaSooner]

As most of us expected, the Mayor is continuing to negotiate a settlement to this issue by submitting another proposal to the FOP.  They're expected to vote on it soon so it must be a pretty decent offer to them.  

There were no other details in the article in today's paper.

[MH2010]

The FOP received the offer yesterday and are meeting about the offer on Wednesday.  The offer will be discussed at the meeting.  At that point, there may be a station house vote of the entire membership to either accept or reject the offer.

[Rico]

 I am in hopes that the City has made an offer that will retain the Police we have and be an incentive to attract other Officers to the Tulsa Police Dept.

Earlier in this thread I made reference to Tulsa heading towards a crime rate that was comparable to that of Compton CA...

For some that is thought to be a grandiose comparison...

For those that have never had the Luck to visit Compton...
It is the only City I have ever been in that I would not stop at Red Lights.. You do not want to be anything other than a moving, hard to hit, target...

Although the Population of Compton is smaller than that of Tulsa... it is surrounded by other Municipalities that make it seem twice to three times the size of Tulsa.

Have a look at the Crime Stats Comparison:

Tulsa vs Compton

Keep in mind these stats are from 2004.... The number of Homicides in Tulsa so far this year is 46......

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

 I am in hopes that the City has made an offer that will retain the Police we have and be an incentive to attract other Officers to the Tulsa Police Dept.

Earlier in this thread I made reference to Tulsa heading towards a crime rate that was comparable to that of Compton CA...

For some that is thought to be a grandiose comparison...

For those that have never had the Luck to visit Compton...
It is the only City I have ever been in that I would not stop at Red Lights.. You do not want to be anything other than a moving, hard to hit, target...

Although the Population of Compton is smaller than that of Tulsa... it is surrounded by other Municipalities that make it seem twice to three times the size of Tulsa.

Have a look at the Crime Stats Comparison:

Tulsa vs Compton

Keep in mind these stats are from 2004.... The number of Homicides in Tulsa so far this year is 46......

Wow. We should have asked for more than 8%![]

[RecycleMichael]

Because crime is up, a policeman think that he deserves a bigger pay raise?

Unbelievable.

[TulsaSooner]

I didn't know that TPD had trouble attracting quality applicants.  I was under the impression they had far more applicants than they had spots for.

Also, why do we require a degree?  Granted, it would be nice if every job had a degreed person in it but since most places don't require it, why should we?  Never understood that.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaSooner

I didn't know that TPD had trouble attracting quality applicants.  I was under the impression they had far more applicants than they had spots for.

Also, why do we require a degree?  Granted, it would be nice if every job had a degreed person in it but since most places don't require it, why should we?  Never understood that.

It has been shown in studies that officers with college degrees are less likely to have discipline problems and perform their jobs better.

In an analysis of disciplinary cases against Florida cops from 1997 to 2002, the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that officers with only high school educations were the subjects of 75% of all disciplinary actions. Officers with four-year degrees accounted for 11% of such actions.

Less than 5% of local police departments with more than 100 officers require four-year degrees.  Tulsa is an elite agency even though our pay does not reflect it.

Plano, Tx tried to implement the 4-year college degree with it's police force.

College Degree Equals Big Bucks For Plano Police

Tiani Jones
Reporting

(CBS 11 News) PLANO Starting pay for a Plano police officer is $50,000, the highest in North Texas. But there's a catch... all new officers must have a 4-year college degree.

It's more than likely that the Plano police officer that pulls you over has a college education... in fact, it's now a requirement.

Plano Police Department Sergeant William D. Hiney says the requirements started 30 college hours and then moved to 60. As of January 1st a full baccalaureate is required.

The Plano Police Department says more than 50% of the people who live there have bachelor degrees. So they felt it only appropriate that their department reflect the community.

"We absolutely want to reflect the population that we have here and we're going to put our best effort forward to do that," Hiney said.

Sergeant Hiney is a part of the Plano Police Professional Standards Unit and says an education is going to pay off in Plano.

For example, when 6'6 Plano police officer Clark Miller steps into his cruiser he has the luxury of moving his seat back.

"We got the one man cage because of the problem I had with my back and related to my height, so the city did me well and let me look into a solution for it," Miller said.

Bosses that listen, top of the line equipment, and a starting salary of 50K are just a few of the departments perks.

"Our compensation is among the highest, our equipment is the best the city supports us tremendously," Hiney said.

Starting pay for Dallas officers is $41,000, in Denton its $45K, Fort Worth $43K and Plano $50K.

10 year veteran Miller, who has his college degree, wasn't so sure about the new requirements but admits his education has made him a better officer.


However, they found they couldn't do it.  

By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — Last February, the Plano, Texas, Police Department took a bold step in its police recruiting efforts: At a time when departments across the nation are desperate for new officers, Plano began requiring its recruits to have four-year college degrees.
The move was aimed at making the city's 345-member police force more like the residents of Plano, a city of about 260,000 about 18 miles north of Dallas. Plano is in one of the nation's wealthiest counties and is home to the headquarters of JC Penney, Frito Lay and Electronic Data Systems. Plano officials cited studies indicating that officers with college degrees have fewer discipline problems than those without.

In August, however, as Plano strained to find enough recruits, the city eased its hiring requirements and began accepting those with two years of college or three years in the military. The latest requirements are stiffer than those from last year, when recruits were required to have at least the equivalent of a high school education. But the episode fueled an ongoing debate over whether police departments' desire to raise recruiting standards can be realized at a time when there are thousands of openings for cops nationwide.

Since 1963, when the Multnomah County, Ore., Sheriff's Department became one of the first police agencies to impose a four-year degree requirement on recruits, only a few other local departments have followed.

Less than 5% of local police departments with more than 100 officers require four-year degrees, says Louis Mayo, executive director of the Police Association for College Education.

Most departments give higher pay to recruits with four-year degrees, he says, but have avoided requiring recruits to have them for several reasons. Among them: concerns about recruiting enough minority officers in increasingly diverse urban areas, and fears that not enough college graduates would be attracted by police salaries. The median annual salary for patrol officers nationwide was about $45,200 in 2004, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Rookie cops usually make less.

"Everybody is gonna tell you it's difficult" to recruit only college graduates, says Plano police Sgt. Jason Christensen. That's true even in Plano, where the pay for new cops is relatively high, about $51,000.

Benefits of perspective

There are about 700,000 state and local police officers across the nation. Mayo estimates that 25% to 30% have four-year degrees. He says departments have been reluctant to adopt stricter recruiting standards despite evidence suggesting that better-educated cops perform better.

In an analysis of disciplinary cases against Florida cops from 1997 to 2002, the International Association of Chiefs of Police found that officers with only high school educations were the subjects of 75% of all disciplinary actions. Officers with four-year degrees accounted for 11% of such actions.

"An average patrol officer spends most of the time on dispute resolution," Mayo says. A degree "gives (officers) a broad perspective that makes them much more effective."

Los Angeles' approach to police recruiting and pay is typical of most big cities. The 9,000-officer department pays new cops with four-year degrees about $55,200, roughly $4,000 more than those who meet the basic requirements of a high school diploma or GED.

Officials say the incentive, along with programs such as one that gives bonuses to bilingual officers, shows a commitment to training. No one's proposing, however, that Los Angeles, which wants to hire 1,000 cops in the next year, require college degrees. Doing so would deplete the pool of candidates in an already tight market, says DeeDee Lopez of the officer mentoring program.

In Plano, where there are up to 15 police vacancies, Christensen acknowledges that concerns about finding enough recruits contributed to easing the prerequisite to two years of college or three years in the military. Plano also accepts recruits who have two years of police experience.

Christensen says the department wants to match officers' education level with that of the city's population. He estimates that 37% of Plano's residents have bachelor's degrees, compared with 32% of its cops.

Hiring goals add pressure

The need for cops has led many cities, including Los Angeles, to look well beyond their borders for recruits. As Lopez suggests, the pressure to meet hiring goals has discouraged some from making requirements too tough.

In a series of essays in The Police Chief magazine, 13 police officials and academics recently urged departments to raise education standards — and to not be deterred by concerns they make it too difficult to fill the ranks. "Police officers need the (college) degree, not only for what it brings to individual officers and their departments, but also for what the degree brings to policing," Robert Friedmann, a criminal justice professor at Georgia State University, wrote in an essay.

The police department in Lakewood, Colo., a Denver suburb, has required recruits to have college degrees since 1969. Chief Ron Burns says recruiting has been more difficult recently, but that the 247-officer department doesn't plan to ease its standards. He says the department's starting salary of $47,000 has helped, as has its reputation as a training ground for police chiefs. Sixty Lakewood officers have gone on to become chiefs, Burns says.

Burns concedes that such standards might not be practical for big departments with hundreds of vacancies a year. His current class of 25 recruits was chosen from about 140 applicants. Burns says a similar ratio of applicants to recruits is typical at larger departments.

"It would be difficult to maintain (the educational requirement) in a larger city," he says.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Because crime is up, a policeman think that he deserves a bigger pay raise?

Unbelievable.

More crime equals more work and more dangerous situations. You know that. Your dad was a police officer.

Maybe if the city of Tulsa administration would prioritize public safety we could get enough officers (through additional academies and retention of officers) to get the crime rate down.

"We must prioritize funding for police and firefighters" - Kathy Taylor

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Because crime is up, a policeman think that he deserves a bigger pay raise?

Unbelievable.

Why not?  The higher crime rate doesn't necessarily imply it is the fault of police.  Police, DA's, and other politicians don't cause crime, criminals do.

A raise is a way of showing appreciation and therefore improving morale.  In a time of higher crime rates, I want to know the police force that is protecting me and my family feels appreciated.

[RecycleMichael]

So if crime goes down, the police should expect a pay cut?

I know it is probably a mistake to explain myself, but I need to try one more time. I am not against the police. They are brave public servants who deserve our respect.

I am merely questioning the tactics of the union.

Let me recap. They have opposed every mayor for the last sixteen years that I can go back. Republican or Democrat, doesn't matter.

They actively campaign against them, even endorsing their opponents in the primary and then switching to another in the general as a clear statement.  

They hire outside consultants who brag about how they can discredit any public budget official, no matter what city they go to.

The union and their friends start conversations throughout the community even calling for impeachment because they don't get all that they want.

The Mayor had two choices. Go against all the budget information that she had that said that there was money for raises this year but not next, or call for an election that would give her time to continue to meet with the union to find a solution.

She also wants to hire more officers and giving a big pay raise makes that more difficult. The union showed to me by their actions that they only care about current officers.

She did exactly what I think she should have and has now found a solution that seems to satisfy everybody.

If this had been any other union, like the labor and trades union, I think most of you would agree with me.

[Double A]

New officers mean nothing if the rate of attrition for existing officers exceed that number. Better take care of these veteran officers who know the streets and know their beats. I think a force full of rookies with no one around to show them the ropes would be a disaster.

Censorship is UnAmerican

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

If this had been any other union, like the labor and trades union, I think most of you would agree with me.

Except the arbitrator didn't agree... and THAT should have been the final word.

I thought when something like this was submitted for arbitration, that the decision of the arbitrators would be final.  

Why the change in law?

[TulsaSooner]

So with the news of the approval of the 8%+ raises......For whoever was asking about the salary levels, it's in the TW today.  Also, I've been told by someone who should know that the majority of TPD would fall between the $65k - $85 range in salary.

After the 8% pay raises (which do not include the merit increases and, presumably, overtime):

Ofcr $42,470 - $59,760
Corp $53,098 - $66,295
Srgt $59,503 - $69,610
Cptn $74,540 - $80,623
Majr $84,858 - $91,782
Dep Chief $100,275 - $108,457

It also lists the salaries for OKC and BA if you're interested.

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaSooner

So with the news of the approval of the 8%+ raises......For whoever was asking about the salary levels, it's in the TW today.  Also, I've been told by someone who should know that the majority of TPD would fall between the $65k - $85 range in salary.

After the 8% pay raises (which do not include the merit increases and, presumably, overtime):

Ofcr $42,470 - $59,760
Corp $53,098 - $66,295
Srgt $59,503 - $69,610
Cptn $74,540 - $80,623
Majr $84,858 - $91,782
Dep Chief $100,275 - $108,457

It also lists the salaries for OKC and BA if you're interested.

Let's not forget subsudized daily commutes to and from work, longevity pay, uniform and other allowances, an incredible package of benefits, especially retirement benefits -- not to mention the standard 'overtime' abuses and the ability to use city property at private security jobs.

[rwarn17588]

Maybe the police will stop complaining for a while.

[8D]