Justice For Sale..... "How Much do we Budget?"

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

Just a few questions amid all the bashing . . . .

Isn't this 8% in addition to step increases (which police seem to take for granted, even though other city employees can't)?  Doesn't that make it more like 12%

What about the other 3,200 city employees?  You know, the ones who took pay cuts so the police officers wouldn't have to?

Do you know what the average police seargent makes, by the way?  It might surprise you.

You can't just look at this in isolation, and you can't look at the expense side without considering the revenue.  Where will this money come from, especially if there's any semblance of equity among employees?  You talk about prioritizing public safety, well, we've done that consistently since 2001.  You also make vague assertions, with no specifics, about hidden pots of gold in city coffers.  Those "hidden" pots of gold pay for engineers, street lights, park mowing, firefighters, and on and on . . . .

My guess is that the award will be presented to voters so that a revenue source can be presented with it -- i.e. 'put up or shut up.'

Well the put up or shut up already happened.  The city put their side up and then the FOP put their side up.  The FOP won. Now, I guess it will be up to the people of Tulsa to decide if they want to have city administrators make public safety a priority.

Second, you are mistaken about the pay cut issue.  The other city employees were not the only people who took pay cuts. The FOP voted for its members to only take comp. time (instead of pay) for overtime for an entire year.  This saved the city I believe approx. 2.3 million dollars (The exact amount was stated in the arbitration.)  By agreeing to this, I personally took a pay cut of about $4,000.00 that year.  I know other officers took more and some less. Upon retrospect, I wish we would have just voted to have taken the 2-3% pay cut like other employees. It would have been alot less of a pay cut.

Third, a Tulsa Police Sgt. makes $52,976.00.  A Broken Arrow Sgt. makes more and they don't even require a four year degree. Furthermore, they aren't even in our 10 city survey. It should also be noted that we are currently 16% below our 10 city market survey.

Lastly, the money is there. That issue was the second part of the arbitration.  The FOP was able to show an independant arbitrator that they city could afford the pay increase. Ironically, it was other city employees that helped us out.  Last year AFSCME won it's arbirtation with the City of Tulsa by showing the same thing that we just showed.

As far as specifics, I will try and post a link to the arbirators decision or at least to our arguments that won the arbiration when I can get my hands on them.  There isn't an FOP meeting until Sept. 6th.

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Third, a Tulsa Police Sgt. makes $52,976.00.

 Well, that's base pay, now how much does he make (and in whose car does he take it home)?

[Trashguy]

The city will throw out doom and gloom.  They just spent over 2 million on stipends for other city workers (it was well deserved) and they gave EMSA ( a private company) 2 million dollars just to help them out.  You are telling me they can't come up with $700,000 to pay cops?  It's about priorities, that simple.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Third, a Tulsa Police Sgt. makes $52,976.00.

 Well, that's base pay, now how much does he make (and in whose car does he take it home)?

A Sgt. take home pay depends on how much overtime he works. Some work little to no overtime and others work more. It depends on the assignment and the person.  As far as take-home cars,if an officer lives in the City of Tulsa or in the twenty-five mile radius, he can take his patrol car home. This was agreed to last year by the city administration.  Furthermore, this agreement also extends to other city employees. The upside to this agreement concerning police officers is that everyone's neighbors feel good that they live next to a police officer and there is the illusion that there are more officers working (traveling to and from work, parked in front of houses or in apartment complexes) then there actually are.  It is good for officers because we don't pay for gas traveling to and from work.

[RecycleMichael]

Officers get a car that they can drive to and from work and also drive while working their side jobs.

What is that worth?  Free car, free gas, no insurance or maintenence costs...

Is that worth $5,000 a year? $10,000 a year?

You think a fireman or city dump truck driver should get to use their city-owned vehicle to work for cash jobs on their day off?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Officers get a car that they can drive to and from work and also drive while working their side jobs.

What is that worth?  Free car, free gas, no insurance or maintenence costs...

Is that worth $5,000 a year? $10,000 a year?

You think a fireman or city dump truck driver should get to use their city-owned vehicle to work for cash jobs on their day off?

I think they put a monitary value on it in arbitration. I'll look and give you the number.  Since other police departments in the 10 city survey do the same thing it was already factored into police compensation. We were still 16% behind the pay of other police departments.

Do city dump truck drivers have college educations? Do they provide public security and safety while working their extra jobs? Do they get dragged by cars, attacked by people or respond to felonies in progress while working their extra jobs? In addition, some of their supervisors have take home cars. Is that fair?

Fireman get duty swap days and get to stay at the station, work out, sleep, watch television, cook their own meals, and play Xbox, Playstation 2 on the job when there are no calls.  Policeman do not.

[RecycleMichael]

Thanks MH2010.

I haven't commented on this thread much because I don't know the facts that were presented in the arbitration hearing.

I don't know who made the argument for each side and what the rational was for the arbitrator's determination.

You had mentioned trying to post that info. I would be most appreciative.

I feel some loyalty to the FOP because my father is a retired Tulsa police officer, but I also have faith the Mayor will do the right thing because I believe she will.

The budget folk for the city were quoted as saying there isn't enough money. I have known these guys for over fifteen years and also trust them to know what they are talking about.

The mayor has not said she is going to fight the higher salaries, but she has to have a balanced budget and the budget people say this will be hard to do with giving the police a big raise while still having negotiations with the other unions pending. Read her quote...

"I filed the request for the election to preserve our options so we can continue a dialogue and make a fiscally responsible decision on behalf of all the employees of the city."

She just needs to keep options open for now. I don't blame her for that. Wait until this is resolved before you go off all crazy like poster doubleA.

[Wilbur]

I have been hearing for nearly 25 years, from every adminstration, every city commission and every city council, since Mayor Jim Inhoff, that their goal is to see their police officers paid AVERAGE.  Yet, in this last 25 years, there hasn't been one mayor's adminstration, one city commission or one city council who has had the willingness, priorities, or competence to get the job done.  When I say competence, I mean, look at other cities.  They went through the same finacial problems Tulsa did, yet made their employees one of their priorities.

Yet, in 2000 or 2001, when the city council and the mayor wanted to adjust their pay, in just a few short months, they were able to go out, survey other cities, and put their own salaries at or above market survey.  The message sent at that time - "we got ours, now good luck trying to get yours."

This Mayor, and this city council, have the opportunity to FINALLY say to their police officers, you at least deserve AVERAGE.  

And don't believe the 4.5% pay numbers put out by the city, which is a bunch of crap.  Their offer is 2.3%, which is an increase in total salary dollars compared to last year.  2.3%, which doesn't even keep up with inflation.

The Mayor and council have to look themselves in the face and honestly answer  "Are our police officers deserving of average."  If not, how will they ever recruit anyone in the future with a straght face and say "We've been promising to pay our police average for a quarter century.  One of these days, we might get it done."

[rwarn17588]

MH2010, the budget is tight. That fact's concurred by Rick Westcott (Chris Medlock's successor) and virtually every city councilor.

Can you prove that the money is there in the city budget for an 8 percent raise?

If there isn't, there's not much sense in promising money that doesn't exist, does it?

[Wilbur]

Can you prove that the money is there in the city budget for an 8 percent raise?

That was already proven by the FOP and agreed to by the independent arbitrator.  Even the City agrees the money is there for this year.

Remember, the FOP must prove two things at arbitration:  1-That officers deserve a pay raise.  2-That money is available for pay raises.  If you can't prove both, then the arbitrator must award for the city.

[rwarn17588]

But does that include the fact that contracts still have to be written for the firefighters and other unions? All that available money will vanish of they get raises, too.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

MH2010, the budget is tight. That fact's concurred by Rick Westcott (Chris Medlock's successor) and virtually every city councilor.

Can you prove that the money is there in the city budget for an 8 percent raise?

If there isn't, there's not much sense in promising money that doesn't exist, does it?

Wilbur is right. I think I also stated that above.  For us to win the arbitration we had to prove that 1. We deserve the money and 2. The city can afford it.

So far, I have been very disappointed with city counsel.  They won't even meet with the FOP to discuss the arbitration ruling.  They have had meetings with the city administration but refuse to meet with us.  The FOP would be glad to meet with the city counsel and explain how we won the arbitration.  

RM. I know that you are friends with the city administrators and I'm not going to call anyone out by name on the board but do you realize that their income projections were off by 12 million dollars last year.  The city made 12 million more dollars to put into the budget then they projected.  This practice of misestamating has been a constant thing over the years.  They grossly under cut their projected income rate for the last five years so I don't have much faith in them saying that the money is there this year but won't be next year.  Even though that point is unfounded because this contract will be expired after this fiscal year and we will be negotiating a new one again next fiscal year.

As far as the firemen and the other city employees, it is not written anywhere that we all have to get the same raises.  In fact, other city employes have gotten raises in the past and we have not.  In fact, the other city employees in the AFSCME union should have gotten a raise higher than other city employees when they won their arbitration with the city but the city could ignore their ruling. The fireman have gotten better raises and contracts than the other city employees and police in the past and nothing was said.  This all or nothing argument only surfaces when the city losses an arbitration.

Mayor Taylor is from the private sector before this. When she gave raises to her company employees, did she always give the same raises to everyone? Or did different raises go to employees with different job titles, employees working in different departments and/or employees with different responsiblities?

[Conan71]

Kathy Taylor a liar?  Well, Duh!

Why would anyone expect anything different from a candidate who hedged on a formal response about voting twice in the 2000 election until her toadies confirmed that any real evidence had been already destroyed by the Tulsa County Election Board.  Her deer in the headlights look when she was confronted with it told me all I needed to know.

[RecycleMichael]

Revenue projections are for 537 million dollars this year.

Twelve million is a very small amount to be wrong in such a budget.

I would much rather have conservative estimates from budget professionals than overly-optimistic ones that require emergency budget cuts and reducing city services.

Were the police union arguments based on some other budget projections than the ones prepared by the city?

[rwarn17588]

Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor. You'd better find another strawman to knock down.

And no one has answered the question on whether the mediator used budget projects that include raises to the other city unions.

I'm all for the cops getting raises. But you'd better not break the bank in doing so.