Justice For Sale..... "How Much do we Budget?"

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor. You'd better find another strawman to knock down.

And no one has answered the question on whether the mediator used budget projects that include raises to the other city unions.

I'm all for the cops getting raises. But you'd better not break the bank in doing so.

All Tim Harris' investigation revealed was exactly what Taylor's toadies found out- the signature records were destroyed per protocol, the evidence no longer existed.  It doesn't mean she didn't.  Her reaction and response were pretty fishy for someone who was innocent.

If she was so innocent, then why did she come up with such vague and tentative answers when confronted, instead of saying: "I don't remember, I'll have to get back with you on that."  She never stated firmly that she didn't vote in both elections for several hours, only after some research was done by her camp at the TCEB.

Aside from that little fib, Taylor is a stereo-typical politician: Make as many promises to get elected as you can, then hope everyone forgets what all you promised after you get in office.  No worse or no better than many other elected officials.

[rwarn17588]

Back to the subject ...

Does anyone know whether the mediator considered other union contracts that are up for renewal when he/she considered the police pay hike?

[tulsa_fan]

Rwarn - I'm not sure anyone can answer your question for sure without have the arbitrators filings and such, but I would offer this thought.  Last year when the department went to arbitration, the arbitrator found that not only did the officers deserve the raise they were requesting (based on other departments) but there was money in the budget for those raises.  His reasoning for NOT siding with the FOP was that there wasn't not money for all other departments and it would be detrimental for employee morale (all city employees) to give the police their raises.

Because this is an independent arbitrator, I would think he or she takes the big picture into consideration.  The city has said the money is there, they are saying it won't be there for future years.  That's not a fair argument at all.  They operate on a year to year budget, they can't already be saying what they can and can't afford next year.  

I also have to agree with MH's point about companies not giving across the board same raises.  Within my own department and on my same level, there was a wide range of increases.  It may not matter, but I thought it should be mentioned this 8% raise would be effective January 1, not retro to July 1, it's only for 6 months not 12.  

[Wilbur]

And no one has answered the question on whether the mediator used budget projects that include raises to the other city unions.

The FOP does not negotiate on behalf of other city employees.  Nor does the city want other city employees to join a union.  I'm confident, that if the City wants to play the "me too" games, the FOP would be more then interested in putting a "me too" clause into a future contract, as the FOP has received lower pay raises then firefighters in the past.  But I promise you, the City will never go for that.

If the city says the FOP award would force them to grant raises to all city employees, perhaps the FOP should look into collecting monthly union dues from the rest of the 2500+ city employees, since the city seems to be claiming the FOP is negotiating on their behalf as well.

The City tried to play the games of saying they can't afford a raise for all city employees with the arbitrator, but he kept cutting them off saying the FOP does not negotiate for other city employees.

If the city wants to say that "me too" will attach to all other city employees, whether they are represented by a union or not, I say great!!

[RecycleMichael]

It is interesting that police or related have commented on this thread. MH2010 and Wilbur are both policemen and tulsa fan is in the FOP auxilary.

I appreciate their contributions to the discussion. Where is copperhead?

You folk obviously have more insight to the whole process than someone like me who gets all their info on this subject from the Tulsa World and TulsaNow.

I sure wish the arbitrator's information and decision were available to read on this forum.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor.

I wouldn't call avoiding prosecution because the statute of limitations had run out being exonerated, I'd call that getting away with it red handed. Exonerated? Really? That stinks like a freshly spun steaming hot off the press Whirled pseudo journalist propaganda piece. Do the water fountains at the Whirled dispense the Kool-Aid or does it just flow through the HVAC systems in a fine mist?

BTW, that "investigation" left more questions than answers.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Um, Conan, Tim Harris' investigation into the voting exonerated Kathy Taylor.

I wouldn't call avoiding prosecution because the statute of limitations had run out being exonerated, I'd call that getting away with it red handed. Exonerated? Really? That stinks like a freshly spun steaming hot off the press Whirled pseudo journalist propaganda piece. Do the water fountains at the Whirled dispense the Kool-Aid or does it just flow through the HVAC systems in a fine mist?

BTW, that "investigation" left more questions than answers.

A.A.................. You know.. I have seen you appear before the City Council...

Your concerns, for the most part, always make sense.. You seem to be well mannered.. Well educated.. and a polite individual..

I have yet to see you go before them and argue or voice concern over an issue that means little or nothing to the subject at hand... or the Future of Tulsa..

You, more than likely, could contribute more to the success of subjects at hand than speaking in partisan tongues..

Just an observation..

I do not believe that $800K is the stuff that a conspiracy is made of...

I do think it may be a budget suggestion that came from the wrong side of someones brain..

As MH2010 has said "this contract expires in a year..."  

We would like to think we are moving in a positive direction with the Police Department. After the Chief Been incident we needed to mend the schism that has formed between City Hall and the Departments that serve our City..

We will see if that is the trend that is followed..

[MH2010]

Police: 8% Sought: Mayor calling for vote on raise
By BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
9/14/2006

Mayor Kathy Taylor has called for a Dec. 12 special election for the public to decide whether Tulsa police should receive an 8 percent raise.

Taylor recently signed the election's proclamation, according to documents filed with the City Clerk's Office.

The Tulsa County Election Board has not yet received the paperwork, officials there said.

First, the mayor and representatives from the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 93 must agree on the way the issue will be worded on the ballot, Deputy Mayor Tom Baker said.

FOP President Darin Filak said his union will conduct a full-blown campaign to get its message to voters.

"I think the people of Tulsa recognize the importance of public safety," he said, noting that a civilian group is forming called Citizens Organizing for Public Safety, or COPS.

"Our officers are being paid less than those in the suburbs and deserve better for putting their lives on the line every day."

The raise would make Tulsa more competitive with Owasso, Broken Arrow and Oklahoma City in hiring new officers and retaining veterans, Filak said.

It also would force  

city officials to truly make public safety a funding priority, he said.

Filak said he doesn't know how much money the union will spend on the effort but that it will include TV and radio spots, mailings and all of the other components of a traditional campaign.

"We're determined to win this," he said.

Baker said the city cannot conduct a campaign with taxpayer dollars but may hold public informational meetings.

The situation is similar to the votes for third-penny and general obligation bond packages. The Tulsa Metro Chamber in the past has paid for campaigns to see that those initiatives passed.

Baker said he doesn't know whether a group will step forward to fund a campaign against the raises.

A neutral arbitrator last month awarded the 8 percent, across-the-board raise to be effective Jan. 1, which was the best offer submitted by the FOP during unsuccessful negotiations with the city.

City officials had offered a 4.5 percent raise for the entire fiscal year, from July 1 to June 30, arguing it was the best they could do.

The pay increases for the 800-member force would add $940,000 to the current budget and even more to the next budget cycle, since it would be for a full 12 months.

By law, the arbitrator's decision gave Taylor two options: accept the award or request an election and let the voters decide.

This is the first time an arbitrator's award has led to an election since the state enacted the option in the late 1990s.

A deal still could be reached between the city and union leaders at any point leading up to the election.

"We're willing to continue talks," Filak said.

Taylor is giving the city's 1,420 nonunion employees one-time bonuses averaging 2 percent of their salaries in their final checks this month.

The City Council is set to approve numerous budget amendments this week to pull together the $1,681,571 that the bonuses will cost from various city operating funds.

Raises for other union employees, including firefighters, laborers and emergency communications workers, are still up in the air.

In council committee meetings earlier this week, Budget Director Pat Connelly said the firefighters are taking a "me, too" approach to the situation with the police.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Brian Barber 581-8322
brian.barber@tulsaworld.com

[MH2010]

Here is a link to the FOP website:

http://www.fop93.com/

If you look under "Announcements" there are three links to PDF files.  The first two are documents used in the Arbitration that the FOP won against the city.  The third PDF file is the testimony of the City of Tulsa Budget director. The testimony is quite lengthy but I hope people read it.

[RecycleMichael]

Thanks MH 2010.

I plan to read all the details this weekend.

[Conan71]

Two problems I have is I percieve this as a cop-out (no pun intended) on the part of Mayor Taylor.  I'm assuming the average pay is what, $35 to $40K?  That's only $233 to $266 per month, after taxes, that's pretty imperceptible.

Secondly, why put it out there a month or so after the November general election when voter turn-out will be pathetic and the cost of it winds up taking that much more budget money away from a pay raise.  Is it too late by election rules to get it on the GE ballot when more people will vote on it?

Certainly, there have got to be some other wasteful areas of the city budget that can be cut to give our police force a raise.  Do we really need a $105,000 per year economic development director when our police force is being paid less than those in surrounding communities and OKC?

[Rico]

This, and many other "budget" problems faced by the City of Tulsa, could be addressed with one action...

Yet it seems not a soul is brave enough to utter the words...

Stop paying the Metro Chamber Hotel - Motel Tax...

It's a slush fund that everyone seems to pretend doesn't exist.

[RecycleMichael]

Starting pay for an apprentice police officer is just under $34,000 per year.

The personnel services budget for the Tulsa Police department for this fiscal year is $67, 652,000. That number includes pay and benefits.

If I take that number and divide by 800 officers, it equals $84,565 per officer.

Generally, pay is about two thirds of the equation and benefits one third, which would make the average pay for a Tulsa Police officer in the mid-fifty thousand dollars per year.

[BASleuth]

It is my understanding the cities alleged 4.5% last best offer is no more than an adjustment to ingrade steps (all ready budgeted) with no more than a 2.3% increased to those in final steps. The cities offer must be examined closely.  Remember in the campaign we were going to have 200 additional officers.  Have yet employed an additional officer only those for replacements.  Have to examine everything that is coming from city hall extremely careful.

[TulsaSooner]

quote:Originally posted by BASleuth

It is my understanding the cities alleged 4.5% last best offer is no more than an adjustment to ingrade steps (all ready budgeted) with no more than a 2.3% increased to those in final steps. The cities offer must be examined closely.  Remember in the campaign we were going to have 200 additional officers.  Have yet employed an additional officer only those for replacements.  Have to examine everything that is coming from city hall extremely careful.

If you're a non-union City employee, you would pee yourself in excitement if presented with any of those numbers being thrown out regarding the police considering what you've received over the last 5 years.