Tulsa a Dying City?

[jtcrissup]

Yeah, I was trying not to date myself too much, but I was definately not going out during the BYOL phase of Tulsa.  I couldn't even tell you what years that phase spanned (mid/late 70s??)

Anyway, thanks for all the information!  

I know the "Stings West" building well, as we officed not far from there (I always wondered what it used to be).  Too bad this building has gone into disrepair...in fact there are a lot of buildings on this stretch of Peoria (north of BA and South of 244) that "look" like they were once very cool, but now have weeds in the parking lots and boarded up windows.  Hopefully Pearl and Cherry St developments/businesses will spill over onto this stretch of Peoria...there is so much potential here, but (I assume) developers are making more money (with less risk) turning Bixby/Owasso farm/ranch land into subdivisions/strip malls...this is sad to me, but it can't continue forever, and (I think) the focus is already starting to come back to the city core.

[aoxamaxoa]

You freak. North Sheridan at 6th....er, Sheridan Ave. and about North 6th ....there is a tabacco stand on the west side of the street today.... the center on the east side of Sheridan has a mexican rest next door to where the club used to be. ....the observatory was where I first heard Carl Radle play with Leon...I also saw the Wilson Bros. there when they were very young....

Swake, today is your day you spook.

[Sangria]

Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.

They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.

Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.

If we can't keep the people already here in Tulsa - what makes you think we will keep anyone else?

I agreed with a lot of what the Artist had to say. We ned more romance and we need that "thing" that makes us special and puts us in peoples mind and build on that.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

My son asked why we are building the Arena so close to the homeless shelter and the jail.

Did you explain to him that it's closer to the downtown transit center, the federal courthouse, the convention center, and city hall than it is to either the jail or shelters?

Just curious.

[waterboy]

No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?

How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location? It makes it worse. Being near a transit station is a good idea but I doubt thats the major reason why it was chosen.

All things considered, being so close to the court house, city hall, the homeless shelter and the jail was not a positive. Its a depressing area that we'll be inviting skeptical Tulsans from the burbs to visit and the first impression visitors to downtown will have.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?

Yes, somewhat.  There was easier land on the east side of downtown, but the hope (now almost realized) was that the East End would become, well, what it's about to become.  Also there was easy land anywhere outside of the city center, but that defeats the purpose of a central arena gathering place.  I was working at the Federal Building as a clerk when the site was designated, and I was puzzled at first.  Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock, as well as the fact that it was the closest available site to the current Convention Center.  And of course, you concede the public transportation issue.  Can somebody toss a gmap into the mix and show these folks what I'm talking about?

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?

While those two do not necessarily improve the location, they don't harm it like you say.  It's a matter of having a consolidated city center.  You suggest our town may be dying, but in the same post you suggest we should keep infrastructure improvements away from the civic center.

The reason I post is to suggest that anyone claiming that Tulsa is dying is simply, completely wrong.  Job growth is up.  Economic indicators are jumping.  And you know the biggest, most exciting thing?  The national decline in the housing market.  It may seem counterintuitive, but as the cities that saw the housing boom originate begin to experience a decline, that money will go elsewhere.  You can see it in Texas: as downtown high-rise condos in Chicago, Vegas, Miami and LA begin to falter, they are just getting going in Dallas and Houston because of cheaper land and less developed cores.  And cities like Tulsa, with defined central districts, are next.  Don't believe me?  Read this New York Times column about Omaha.  It's tongue-in-cheek in part, but there serious part describes the exact same conditions that exist in Tulsa.  There is no denying that we are seeing the beginnings of a major influx of outside investment.  

I know you can begin to look at the trees - crumbly sidewalks, a couple of bums (nothing major if you've been to other larger cities) - and miss the forest.  It's important to see the big picture of our city and realize that a new era of growth in the city core has begun.  Be patient, run your errand again in 2009, and prepare for a shock.

[sendoff]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?

It doesn't. But once they have several school day matinees at the arena and have several thousand elementary aged kids roaming around, I think the Feds will get a clue about safety and start thinking about a new courthouse. (Mmmmmm......money from outside the metro.)

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?

Yes, somewhat.  There was easier land on the east side of downtown, but the hope (now almost realized) was that the East End would become, well, what it's about to become.  Also there was easy land anywhere outside of the city center, but that defeats the purpose of a central arena gathering place.  I was working at the Federal Building as a clerk when the site was designated, and I was puzzled at first.  Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock, as well as the fact that it was the closest available site to the current Convention Center.  And of course, you concede the public transportation issue.  Can somebody toss a gmap into the mix and show these folks what I'm talking about?

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?

While those two do not necessarily improve the location, they don't harm it like you say.  It's a matter of having a consolidated city center.  You suggest our town may be dying, but in the same post you suggest we should keep infrastructure improvements away from the civic center.

The reason I post is to suggest that anyone claiming that Tulsa is dying is simply, completely wrong.  Job growth is up.  Economic indicators are jumping.  And you know the biggest, most exciting thing?  The national decline in the housing market.  It may seem counterintuitive, but as the cities that saw the housing boom originate begin to experience a decline, that money will go elsewhere.  You can see it in Texas: as downtown high-rise condos in Chicago, Vegas, Miami and LA begin to falter, they are just getting going in Dallas and Houston because of cheaper land and less developed cores.  And cities like Tulsa, with defined central districts, are next.  Don't believe me?  Read this New York Times column about Omaha.  It's tongue-in-cheek in part, but there serious part describes the exact same conditions that exist in Tulsa.  There is no denying that we are seeing the beginnings of a major influx of outside investment.  

I know you can begin to look at the trees - crumbly sidewalks, a couple of bums (nothing major if you've been to other larger cities) - and miss the forest.  It's important to see the big picture of our city and realize that a new era of growth in the city core has begun.  Be patient, run your errand again in 2009, and prepare for a shock.

Well, IMO they do actually harm the location. Maybe that is balanced off by the parking garages, which by the way can be rebuilt anywhere downtown cheaper than office buildings. But I don't think so. Don't assume that just because you work downtown that makes you an expert on site location. Many of us have. is there a compelling reason for having the convention center near the Arena? Is it really that hard to get around in this small downtown? That point is not strong to me.

Consider this as a business that you personally invested in that would attract the general public, including children. You want it centrally located. Honestly, would you put it here? You may have become hardened to the streets of the area, your suburban clientelle have not. They are already scared of downtown and there is no reason, I agree, but that's the way it is.

Thanks for your response. Again, I am trying to elicit replies that are encouraging and motivating about downtown. I live merely a mile away from its heart. I certainly don't want the heart to fail. There needs to be some confidence built that we are in fact approaching a better vision there.

[pmcalk]

I was downtown over the weekend.  My husband & I met some friends at McNellies on Friday night, which was, as ussual, packed.  We got a table, visited, saw several people we knew, ate dinner, then left for a movie.  Since we both drove, I left my car downtown.  We came back around 11:30 pick it up (which, I have to say, is way past my bed time).

Because I am normally in bed by 11:30, I hadn't been downtown that late in many years.  I was really suprised--it was packed.  Young people walking around, music blaring from the bars, etc....  Everything I would have wanted when I was in my 20s.  But I was off in New York when I was in my 20s.

Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be.  If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.

Tulsa is a wonderful, midsized town, that has lots to offer, but still makes you feel welcome.  It has great restaurants, in which very likely you will run into someone you know.  It has wonderful musicians, whom you can meet at the grocery store.  It has undiscovered artists, laid-back lawyers (where else could you find laid-back lawyers?), and people from around the world.  I love that about Tulsa.  Is it dying?  I believe the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated.

Yesterday, I was in Target.  I was standing in a long line to check out, and my kid was crying.  The man in front of me said to go ahead--he wasn't in a hurry.  What is wonderful about that is that I am not suprised--you find people like that all over Tulsa.  Move to New York and see how many people would do that.

As for the streets downtown, I will probably get shot down for saying this, but I don't think our streets are that bad.  And even if they were poor, I don't think thats indicative of anything.  New York, DC, Boston--the streets there are pathetic.  Maybe thats because they are so heavily used.

[sauerkraut]

Tulsa cannot be in that bad a shape. The city has low unemployment, the Sunday Tulsa Newspaper is loaded with jobs. A big attraction to a city is what it has to offer, and I believe the RiverSide jogging trails are a big attraction, many cities are building such bike/jog trails for it's citizens. Tulsa needs to rebuild the crumbling sections of the jogging trail and extend it down south past 101st street a few more miles, and on the west side of the river. I'm against that new project about messing with the Arkansas River and building a lake or island is a good idea, I'd leave the river alone as it is and just build up with what Tulsa already has. Tulsa has a great economy, jobs are booming.[]

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?

Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock

Four parking garages adjacent to the superblock?  I am looking out my office window at the superblock as I type and I can see the Convention Center parking garage cater-cornered from the superblock and . . .   Okay, where did you hide the other three?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?

Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock

Four parking garages adjacent to the superblock?  I am looking out my office window at the superblock as I type and I can see the Convention Center parking garage cater-cornered from the superblock and . . .   Okay, where did you hide the other three?

I was thinking of the Convention Center garage, the Civic Plaza garage, the new 2nd and Cheyenne garage, and hm ... okay three adjacent and many more nearby.  My point was that abundant existing structural parking certainly drove the decision, whereas an East End arena would have required new garages or an expansive lot.

[TheArtist]

I dont mind the location of the arena and convention center and the parking garages around it etc.  Some of those things need to be near each other. Its starting to be that those large, cold, sterile "infrastructure" type things, including the jail, are all off in one corner but if you go off in the other direction you will hit the more liveable, walkable area of downtown. Seeing it this way the arena is in the perfect spot, park on one side of it, enjoy the other side of it lol. And if they actually do build that development on the corner near the arena it will help connect the arena to the "better" part of downtown.

[tulitlikeitis]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I was downtown over the weekend.  My husband & I met some friends at McNellies on Friday night, which was, as ussual, packed.  We got a table, visited, saw several people we knew, ate dinner, then left for a movie.  Since we both drove, I left my car downtown.  We came back around 11:30 pick it up (which, I have to say, is way past my bed time).

Because I am normally in bed by 11:30, I hadn\'t been downtown that late in many years.  I was really suprised--it was packed.  Young people walking around, music blaring from the bars, etc....  Everything I would have wanted when I was in my 20s.  But I was off in New York when I was in my 20s.

Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be.  If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.

Tulsa is a wonderful, midsized town, that has lots to offer, but still makes you feel welcome.  It has great restaurants, in which very likely you will run into someone you know.  It has wonderful musicians, whom you can meet at the grocery store.  It has undiscovered artists, laid-back lawyers (where else could you find laid-back lawyers?), and people from around the world.  I love that about Tulsa.  Is it dying?  I believe the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated.

Yesterday, I was in Target.  I was standing in a long line to check out, and my kid was crying.  The man in front of me said to go ahead--he wasn\'t in a hurry.  What is wonderful about that is that I am not suprised--you find people like that all over Tulsa.  Move to New York and see how many people would do that.

As for the streets downtown, I will probably get shot down for saying this, but I don\'t think our streets are that bad.  And even if they were poor, I don\'t think thats indicative of anything.  New York, DC, Boston--the streets there are pathetic.  Maybe thats because they are so heavily used.

Your comment about NYC is absolute bulls**t. Take a look at the recent most dangerous cities list. Out of about 370 cities Tulsa is in the top 10% (of dangerous ones) while NYC is about midway on the list ... which makes NY about 100 spots more safe than Tulsa.

If you are going to make a comparison, at least make it right.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I was downtown over the weekend.  My husband & I met some friends at McNellies on Friday night, which was, as ussual, packed.  We got a table, visited, saw several people we knew, ate dinner, then left for a movie.  Since we both drove, I left my car downtown.  We came back around 11:30 pick it up (which, I have to say, is way past my bed time).

Because I am normally in bed by 11:30, I hadn\'t been downtown that late in many years.  I was really suprised--it was packed.  Young people walking around, music blaring from the bars, etc....  Everything I would have wanted when I was in my 20s.  But I was off in New York when I was in my 20s.

Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be.  If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.

Tulsa is a wonderful, midsized town, that has lots to offer, but still makes you feel welcome.  It has great restaurants, in which very likely you will run into someone you know.  It has wonderful musicians, whom you can meet at the grocery store.  It has undiscovered artists, laid-back lawyers (where else could you find laid-back lawyers?), and people from around the world.  I love that about Tulsa.  Is it dying?  I believe the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated.

Yesterday, I was in Target.  I was standing in a long line to check out, and my kid was crying.  The man in front of me said to go ahead--he wasn\'t in a hurry.  What is wonderful about that is that I am not suprised--you find people like that all over Tulsa.  Move to New York and see how many people would do that.

As for the streets downtown, I will probably get shot down for saying this, but I don\'t think our streets are that bad.  And even if they were poor, I don\'t think thats indicative of anything.  New York, DC, Boston--the streets there are pathetic.  Maybe thats because they are so heavily used.

Your comment about NYC is absolute bulls**t. Take a look at the recent most dangerous cities list. Out of about 370 cities Tulsa is in the top 10% (of dangerous ones) while NYC is about midway on the list ... which makes NY about 100 spots more safe than Tulsa.

If you are going to make a comparison, at least make it right.

You OK.........Tulitlikitis or did you just want to pick on a lady..?

There is no mention of crime in PM's post..

Perhaps you are on the wrong thread.?

Happy Halloween[}:)]