Tulsa a Dying City?

[TheArtist]

^Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.

[OurTulsa]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

^Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.

At the risk of turning this thread into a discussion of the City.  I am hopefull that her suggestion that her car would not have been there upon return was more on account of it being towed not jacked.  

If it were a reference to being jacked then I would have advised her not to park it in the hood otherwise she would have been fine.  Of course, we may have lived there during different eras.

[pmcalk]

I didn't mean to get into an argument about crime.  Perhaps what I should have said is that I wouldn't have had a car in New York, because, dear Lord, where would I have parked it?

I lived in New York in the late 80s/early 90s.  Cars were broken into constantly.  People had signs in their windows alerting robbers that there was nothing left in the car to steal.  On the last day in New York, my husband was loading the car.  After locking it, he ran back to get one more item.  When he came back down (maybe 20 minutes later), everything in the car was gone, and a pile of glass was on the sidewalk.  That is a typical story from NY.  People learn to adjust--never leave anything in the car, park it in a garage, or get rid of it all together.  New York isn't a bad city, just a difficult one to live in.  

We could argue back in forth which is a safer city.  I don't care.  I love Tulsa.  I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?

Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock

Four parking garages adjacent to the superblock?  I am looking out my office window at the superblock as I type and I can see the Convention Center parking garage cater-cornered from the superblock and . . .   Okay, where did you hide the other three?

I was thinking of the Convention Center garage, the Civic Plaza garage, the new 2nd and Cheyenne garage, and hm ... okay three adjacent and many more nearby.  My point was that abundant existing structural parking certainly drove the decision, whereas an East End arena would have required new garages or an expansive lot.

I can give you one adjacent and two "nearby".  But keep in mind that the new 2nd and Cheyenne garage was built largely in anticipation of the new arena.  It could have just as easily been built near another location.

[Renaissance]

My smaller point was that the new arena location actually makes more sense than some folks would give credit.  There was nothing on that block, save perhaps the Denver Diner, worth saving.  And it consolidated super-block development to that corner of downtown, leaving room for more organic developement on the east side.

My larger point was that Tulsa is not dying - it is thriving.  When discussing the health of the city, it makes no sense to point out a crumbly, about-to-be-fixed sidewalk while ignoring larger patterns of population growth, job growth, and property development in the city core.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by sendoff

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?

It doesn't. But once they have several school day matinees at the arena and have several thousand elementary aged kids roaming around, I think the Feds will get a clue about safety and start thinking about a new courthouse. (Mmmmmm......money from outside the metro.)

How great a threat to the courthouse could a bunch of elementary kids possibly pose to it to make them want to move the courthouse? Do elementary kids have a habit of storming courthouses or something?

[jtcrissup]

quote:Originally posted by Sangria

Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.

They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.

Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.

First...suburban flight does not equal "dying Tulsa" it equals "thriving Metro".  As these people "move" to the 'burbs it increases our overall ability to provide various types of living scenarios for a wide range of people (which *gasp* is a healthy thing for Tulsa Metro).  For example, if I move to Tulsa from somewhere else I can:

CHOOSE to live in Mounds and run cattle on the side while also working in Tulsa and taking advantage of all of the "big city" things like theatres, restaurants, etc, or

I can CHOOSE to live in the <insert downtown Loft project here> and be within walking distance to my job, places to eat/drink/catch music/etc, or

I can also CHOOSE to move to <insert suburban school community here> and live in a reasonably priced cookie cutter house so my kids will go to a school where I feel they are getting a good education while not being exposed to <insert generic sub-urban myth about "scary" TPS>.  

So, what I am driving at is the Tulsa Metro has a lot of lifestyle options available to people as they move to our little corner of the universe (which like I said is good...people like OPTIONS), and the cost of each option is arrived at by market forces (supply and demand).  If lots of people are lining up to move to Jenks/Owasso/Bixby, the cost of housing goes up (which is happening to the glee of housing/land developers).  If lots of people want convenience/character/history in their surroundings they move to a nice mid town neighborhood and the cost of housing goes up (which is happening at an even quicker pace than in any of the surrounding 'burbs to the glee of area realtors).  

I wish people would STOP segmenting Tulsa Metro into "competing" suburbs who vie for the right to be "fastest growing".  Let's all hold hands and be proud of our region as a great place to call home, not try and belittle our neighbor because they made a different choice in where they live.

End Rant.

[sendoff]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by sendoff

quote:Originally posted by waterboy


How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?

It doesn't. But once they have several school day matinees at the arena and have several thousand elementary aged kids roaming around, I think the Feds will get a clue about safety and start thinking about a new courthouse. (Mmmmmm......money from outside the metro.)

How great a threat to the courthouse could a bunch of elementary kids possibly pose to it to make them want to move the courthouse? Do elementary kids have a habit of storming courthouses or something?

No. It's the fact that there could be that many children near a federal building, not to mention all the buses clogging the streets.

Imagine a disruption at the federal courthouse as all the children are heading to/from their buses. Anything from shootings to hostage situations to bombings have happened in/next to federal courthouses.

New federal buildings have set-back requirements. Here is Nashville's planned federal courthouse - see the set-backs and planters that act as barriers.



Tulsa is due for a new federal courthouse anyhow.

[TheArtist]

In that case, bring on the kids then.[] Oh and I get first dibs on the old building to turn it into a Natural History museum with perhaps a kids science museum section thrown in.[]

But back to the dying thing... I do agree that Tulsa is going throught those akward teenage years.  Just now starting to turn into an adult city and hasnt quite figured out what it wants to be yet.  

The suburbs will grow people will move to them. Then the kids will discover and want to move to the big city, will want to go to college, will have dreams of the cool city life. We need to make sure that the center of Tulsa doesnt do things that will discourage but will encourage that. Dont try to make downtown into the suburbs but make it a real downtown. Invest in those universities.  

Many people after the kids are gone will want to live in a walkable, close knit community, with older and smaller homes or condominiums. Here is where areas like the Pearl District and around Utica will play a role. Promote form based codes.  



Tulsa will have many different options for different lifestyles.  At the moment each "different option" is just now getting established and has to compete with more established like areas in more established cities.  But in time those different areas will grow and become more attractive to its different demographic.

The last 10 years have seen little fits and starts and failures in that direction, never really taking off.  And has been quite frustrating to say the least. Just look at Brookside and how many tranformations and different businesses have been tried there. But I think now those different areas are settling in, finding their groove, their identities. They are small and just budding, but with a little nurturing here and there will take off.  

I guess the arguments could then be, what kind of and how much nurturing we do for each unique area.

I really hope things take off this time and dont falter as they have done before, just when things start looking up they somehow have a way of crashing right back down in Tulsa. We arent out of the woods yet especially for a liveable walkable downtown.  Still crossing my fingers for the Mayo area and the East End.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

I think Tulsa started dying when Oral Roberts opened his University.  It stigmatized Tulsa as a city full of religious zealots.

It may have officially stated what was already apparent to those living here. We have had tent revivals, healings, and temperance movements here since our inception. Original townsite had many houses of worship including Jewish. IMO no more or less than other rural Southern states, though Broken Arrow probably has more churches per square mile than anywhere! Stigmatize is a little too strong.

[aoxamaxoa]

Ok...laughingstock....that's better.

[carltonplace]

IMO Tulsa is not dying; it's on the cusp of a rebirth. Many great points to support this conclusion have been made above, and you could add many, many more.

For me personally (a lifelong Tulsan) I see it every day in my own neighborhood which is just south of downtown. When I bought my new old home two years ago I kept thinking I was making a huge mistake. I got it very cheaply, and most of the homes around it were in decay. I couldn't walk out of my front or back gate without someone asking me for money and the people next door were drug dealers. I was determined to win and I set about fixing up this house that I felt was a part of the history of Tulsa (built in 1909 by Tulsa architect John Blaire).


Now two years later (this month), most of the homes have been purchased and restored. There are kids playing in the yards, on bicycles or skateboards and we actually had trick or treaters this year. The drug dealers are gone and their house is under contract by a young couple that want to fix it up and live in it to raise a family. We also got some V2025 funds to replace the Carson arch (Tulsa Tech will do the work), create gateways around the neighborhood and turn an empty lot into a park. We are working toward an historic designation for our neighborhood and we've created an on line tour that highlights many of the unique Tulsa landmarks, homes and sites that are in our area. The area is vibrant again, not dying.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

IMO Tulsa is not dying; it's on the cusp of a rebirth. Many great points to support this conclusion have been made above, and you could add many, many more.

For me personally (a lifelong Tulsan) I see it every day in my own neighborhood which is just south of downtown. When I bought my new old home two years ago I kept thinking I was making a huge mistake. I got it very cheaply, and most of the homes around it were in decay. I couldn't walk out of my front or back gate without someone asking me for money and the people next door were drug dealers. I was determined to win and I set about fixing up this house that I felt was a part of the history of Tulsa (built in 1909 by Tulsa architect John Blaire).


Now two years later (this month), most of the homes have been purchased and restored. There are kids playing in the yards, on bicycles or skateboards and we actually had trick or treaters this year. The drug dealers are gone and their house is under contract by a young couple that want to fix it up and live in it to raise a family. We also got some V2025 funds to replace the Carson arch (Tulsa Tech will do the work), create gateways around the neighborhood and turn an empty lot into a park. We are working toward an historic designation for our neighborhood and we've created an on line tour that highlights many of the unique Tulsa landmarks, homes and sites that are in our area. The area is vibrant again, not dying.

 

Bravo to you and your neighborhood.  Glad to hear that area is turning around.  That kind of thing often requires individuals like yourself, seeing promise and hope and taking a bit of a risky step.  Each person adding onto the others positive influence and in the aggregate, creating positive change. And its especially important to have those people who go the extra step to do things like the historic designation, archway, and parks. []

[tulitlikeitis]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

I think Tulsa started dying when Oral Roberts opened his University.  It stigmatized Tulsa as a city full of religious zealots.

Bravo ... you nailed that one. You are correct.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

quote:Originally posted by PRH

I think Tulsa started dying when Oral Roberts opened his University.  It stigmatized Tulsa as a city full of religious zealots.

Bravo ... you nailed that one. You are correct.

That's COMPLETELY WRONG.  ORU has contributed positively to this city whether anybody likes  it or not.  The Mabee Center attracted many more events to Tulsa than the Assembly Center/Maxwell Center ever did.  Yes, the religious wingnuts from around the country who moved to Tulsa can be a nuisance... but Broken Arrow IS one of the safest cities in America.  Period.    

I'm tired of Tulsans who unfairly target ORU, Rhema, etc, etc... as the source of all our ills.  Those people have done their civic duty over the course of many years and haven't demanded the kinds of taxpayer subsidies in return that others have...    

The lack of high paying jobs affects Tulsa in a negative way.  The lack of a high profile research institution to complement TU and ORU also affects Tulsa in a negative way.  The lack of a deserved MLS soccer team in Tulsa... well, that just flat-out pi$$es me off... []

But there's still a vibrant undercurrent of "cool people" in Tulsa.  Enthusiastic... creative... sure, some/many may move away in their 20s-- but that's not unlike any other midsized city.  Gypsy's coffeehouse was a great place-- lotsa potential.  And yesterday, I could barely find a parking spot to watch TU-Houston at the Fox & Hound on 71st & Garnett.  The area around TU is much nicer than I remembered from decades ago.  The "Up With Trees" people have successfully made Tulsa much closer to that "America's Most Beautiful City" moniker it had when I was kid.  

And I can give several examples of "dying cities."  A city I considered moving to that had cheaper housing was Rochester, NY... that city's been experiencing a slow death over the past couple of decades... they try, but there's been so many layoffs at Eastman-Kodak, Xerox, etc... I also tried Baltimore but those charming (and really cheap) row houses I saw advertised in the Balt. Sun were ALL BOARDED UP.  Block after block after block of boarded up homes...  Also looked at Indianapolis... vibrant downtown but still had lotsa boarded up homes...

I drove around most of Tulsa over the last couple of weeks -- sometimes just for grins... got chili-cheese dogs at Carl's Coney Island at Executive Mall... everything's changed... but nothing I saw was boarded up.  New businesses, new people... it may not impress the local politicians this time of year, but I was impressed by the large number of hispanic business that have replaced the old "Tiffany Lanes" bowling alley.  Even my childhood SkateWorld wasn't vacant... I mean, who would buy an old skate rink and run a business out of it?   Especially in east Tulsa.  There were some hoppin' places downtown, although I will complain that it's still too isolated and unwalkable other than a block or two around the Brady and Blue Dome area... Even OKC had boarded up homes in certain areas where I used to live... but I just haven't seen any evidence of Tulsa being a "dying city."  No evidence whatsoever.  

So, Davaz, you need a time-out... just go back to your bedroom in Houston and sit in the naughty corner... and, no, you little brat... you are not allowed to  play with your tulitlikeitis sock-puppet anymore... [:O]