Hey, what happend to the crappy post from...

[snopes]

Texas also ranked number ONE in states with the highest percentage of low income, uninsured children.

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact8.shtml

Oklahoma was number 8 on the list, which is certainly nothing to be proud of but when you get that Tex-donkey attitude coming on this forum to bash Oklahoma, it's a bit like the pot AND kettle both calling the dinner-ware black, eh?

Take off the Tex-donkey colored glasses Davaz.

[tulitlikeitis]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

Originally posted by Hometown

By percentage, Texas is the 5th poorest state in the country (16.4% of the population living in poverty compared to 12.6% in OK)

Also the per capita personal income level is only $3000 difference between TX and OK, both being below the national average:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0854972.html

Texas also ranked in the top 10 states with highest percentage of children living in poverty (Oklahoma did not):

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact11.shtml

Lastly, none of the nations top 100 wealthiest zip codes are in TX:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1377315/posts

But the top 3 poorest zip codes are:

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact5.shtml

Get over yourself.

What crap!

Most of these stats are associated with the counties along the Mexican border ... similar situation in New Mexico and AZ. None of this has much to do with the big cities like Houston, Dallas, Austin and San Antonio.

Some very poor counties are in upper NY State. By your analogy, we should say NYC is not worth a s**t because of those counties.

There are about 35-40 Fortune 500 headquarters in Dallas and about an equal number in Houston. How many are there in all of Oklahoma? ... Five or six? Are you saying all of these execs are stupid?

Give me a break ... you are defending that which cannot be defended.

[snopes]

So Tex-donkey being having the highest percentage of low income, uninsured children bears no relevance to this topic? You state that we in Tulsa are backward because of your subjective observances on such things as the cars we drive and the clothes we wear, but because most of TEX-donkey has a stupid finance company on every corner that is somehow supposed to make Tex-donkey better? Surely you jest!

YOU are the one that has nothing to back up your stupid claims and it is YOU who are defending the undefendable.

You actually belong in the bug infested swamp down there in TEX-donkey. You're probably a t-sip to boot!

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Well Tulsa has Oklahoma's wealthiest zip code.  And there are certainly some rich folks supporting those estates over by Philbrook.  But you are right.  Many Tulsans have very little resources.  I do think it is a major failing of Tulsa's that her job creation strategies have not produced much.  And it is dumbfounding and sad that the anti-union forces have prevailed in a state where workers are so clearly in need of some protections.  Yes the number of minority and White folks living in poverty in Tulsa is quite discouraging.

My sense is that Tulsa is still led by the same old rich families and that they are second tier players in the industries they inhabit and that they as a group have failed Tulsa.  The Republicans have failed Tulsa and the Oil Industry has failed Tulsa.

But that's not the half of Tulsa.  Tulsa is big and complex and feisty and muscular and always in motion.  She's a town full of charming sweet talkers and men in big fat trucks.  I've never seen another town exactly like her.

Hometown – you posted a thoughtful note and I will try and post an equally thoughtful response.

I really don't know what is wrong with Tulsa but at this stage of my life, I neither have the time nor the inclination to wait for an upturn. Tulsa's problems have been a long time in the making and will require a long time to mend ... if ever.

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1.   Wealthy
2.   Upper Middle Class Professional
3.   Middle Class
4.   Lower Middle Class
5.   Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1.   Wealthy
2.   Lower Middle Class
3.   Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

To someone with resources, Tulsa is not an attractive place. The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak. Of course, there is terrible poverty in any city ... Houston, LA, NYC, etc. The problem is that in Tulsa it seems in your face wherever you turn.

Like I said ... I came, looked around and did not like what I saw and left. I am not the only one ... the so-called "brain-drain" at the two big state schools continues unabated. They know the reality even if the cheerleaders on this board refuse to admit it.

By percentage, Texas is the 5th poorest state in the country (16.4% of the population living in poverty compared to 12.6% in OK)

Also the per capita personal income level is only $3000 difference between TX and OK, both being below the national average:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0854972.html

Texas also ranked in the top 10 states with highest percentage of children living in poverty (Oklahoma did not):

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact11.shtml

Lastly, none of the nations top 100 wealthiest zip codes are in TX:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1377315/posts

But the top 3 poorest zip codes are:

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact5.shtml

Get over yourself.

You are surely aware that NONE of those links or facts are in any way related to, or an argument opposing that to which you responded.  Sorry, but Tulitlikeitis actually did post a thoughtful, non-flaming thought about Tulsa's problems and your response just attacks Texas with a bunch of unrelated, cherry-picked statistics, rather than discussing Tul's theory.
Any thoughts or arguments about Tul's theory?

[Hometown]

Gosh Davaz if you get any more reasonable we'll all end up holding hands and having warm and fuzzy feelings.

Azbadpuppy, I'm the one that came up with Houston has wealthiest zip code.  I heard that somewhere recently and I could easily be wrong.  Also Snopes is quite right that Texas and Oklahoma are cut from the same fabric.  But guys we would lose any argument that Oklahoma has as much dough as Texas.

Back at the ranch:

You know Davaz I've heard a lot of folks on this forum and elsewhere raise your complaint about the old rich families putting a stranglehold on Tulsa.  

I don't think your position is so very different from that of many of ours.  The difference is the response to the situation.  Some people see Tulsa's dilemma and want to help make a difference.

And I think the argument is with your value system.  You place too much emphasis on material wealth.

Now I would also disagree with you on some details.  If you are a person with resources you have a distinct advantage in Tulsa.  Here, it is the people who hope to gain resources that have a tough row to hoe.  I'm job hunting and have to tell you, I know why the young people leave Tulsa.

You could say that Tulsa is a great place to stretch a dollar.  But it's also a tough place to make a dollar.  

Now really there is no shortage of trendy this and that here.  I sat in a Starbucks at Utica Square the other day and the people looked like San Francisco's Financial District workers.  You can carve out a gourmet kind of life here if you have the resources.

But get very far away from parts of midtown or far south Tulsa and the scene quickly deteriorates.  Of course all the economic negatives here have been greatly exacerbated by the oil companies leaving town.

Anyway, I've gone on much too long and there are other people here who have much more insight than I do on these problems.  Honestly, so far Davaz you haven't come up with anything that is very different from many other posts I've read here.  Can't you come up with a more substantive criticism of Tulsa?  

[snopes]

He can't. It all has to do with wealth. Oil capital, you're argument is fruitless as well. You dispute that the content of those websites has nothing to do with this argument, but in fact they have everything to do with this argument since all of HIS arguments seem to revolve around WEALTH. Davaz says Tulsa is backward and to point out this folly he talks about there being more fortune 500 companies and such in Houston; no real substantive issues on why he thinks Tulsa is so backward. However, there is one huge fact that you cannot dispute; Texans are some of the most arrogant people in the US, and with Oklahoma being so close it is one of their chief targets when it comes to smack talk. I don't for ONE minute believe that Davaz was born or raised in Tulsa. He's typical of many Texans that think they are the end all do all and so they use all of the standard trash talk when it comes to Oklahoma. Sure, Tulsa has its problems as does any city, but I certainly enjoy living here more than I could ever, EVER enjoy myself living in that bug infested swamp near the sea of sludge they call the Gulf of Mexico.

Want some comments from some of the present (and gladly former) residents of Houston?

"I've been here all my life, every since I was 15 I wanted to leave. I'm 25 now. The weather is ridiculous. Hot in the winter, even hotter in the summer. Humidity, my god, I can't keep a hairstyle with it. The Texas draw speaking people and the country accents, are getting on my nerves. I need a change of enviroment. I always wanted to live in New York. Next Year I'm getting the hell up out of here."

"This miserable mosquito infested city is grating on my nerves. I want to get out so badly and move to California. Hopefully sooner rather than later... Only 1,266 days until Houston is only reveiw mirror material."

"I got out of Houston 15 years ago. AND GLAD I DID Grew up there. Now live in small town of 50,000, no traffic, 4 seasons, low humidity – don't sweat like a pig walking from house to car. Native Texan – finally getting over that, too."

Gotta love that last one!

Want to read more! Just visit http://www.43things.com/things/view/85113

[snopes]

Here are some more stats for you. This is off the City Data website at http://www.city-data.com/.  

For population 25 years and over:

High school education or higher: Houston 70.4%/Tulsa 84.4%
Bachelor's degree or higher: Houston 27.0%/Tulsa 28.3%
Graduate or professional degree: Houston 9.7%/Tulsa 9.2%
Unemployed: Houston 7.6%/Tulsa 5.4%
Mean travel time to work: Houston 27.4 minutes/Tulsa 18.6%

It appears to me that Tulsa has a better standard of living, with a higher percentage of educated people than Houston, better commute times to work, and less unemployment. Once again, take off the Tex-donkey colored glasses, or better yet wipe the sweat off and see the light.

Oh, but I see the retort now, "We got us a FORTEUWNE 500 company on every corner down here in Houston! Beat that!"

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

He can't. It all has to do with wealth. Oil capital, you're argument is fruitless as well. You dispute that the content of those websites has nothing to do with this argument, but in fact they have everything to do with this argument since all of HIS arguments seem to revolve around WEALTH. Davaz says Tulsa is backward and to point out this folly he talks about there being more fortune 500 companies and such in Houston; no real substantive issues on why he thinks Tulsa is so backward. However, there is one huge fact that you cannot dispute; Texans are some of the most arrogant people in the US, and with Oklahoma being so close it is one of their chief targets when it comes to smack talk. I don't for ONE minute believe that Davaz was born or raised in Tulsa. He's typical of many Texans that think they are the end all do all and so they use all of the standard trash talk when it comes to Oklahoma. Sure, Tulsa has its problems as does any city, but I certainly enjoy living here more than I could ever, EVER enjoy myself living in that bug infested swamp near the sea of sludge they call the Gulf of Mexico.

Want some comments from some of the present (and gladly former) residents of Houston?

"I've been here all my life, every since I was 15 I wanted to leave. I'm 25 now. The weather is ridiculous. Hot in the winter, even hotter in the summer. Humidity, my god, I can't keep a hairstyle with it. The Texas draw speaking people and the country accents, are getting on my nerves. I need a change of enviroment. I always wanted to live in New York. Next Year I'm getting the hell up out of here."

"This miserable mosquito infested city is grating on my nerves. I want to get out so badly and move to California. Hopefully sooner rather than later... Only 1,266 days until Houston is only reveiw mirror material."

"I got out of Houston 15 years ago. AND GLAD I DID Grew up there. Now live in small town of 50,000, no traffic, 4 seasons, low humidity – don't sweat like a pig walking from house to car. Native Texan – finally getting over that, too."

Gotta love that last one!

Want to read more! Just visit http://www.43things.com/things/view/85113

sorry, pal.  My "argument" was only "fruitless" to those too biased to see.   #1:  Tul's statement was regarding Tulsa, not Houston or anywhere in Texas.  #2:  the stats provided were entirely about the states, not about the metro areas.  Quite a different thing.

And what are you in now, the 7th grade, with your childish and quite revealing "Tex-donkey" comments?  Grow up and TRY to have a civilized conversation.  Maybe you could learn something and the rest of us could too.  Throwing out bad statistics about other cities and states is decidedly NOT the answer to Tulsa's woes.  But you seem to think Tulsa is already perfect, so you can just spend your time and energy searching for stats to bash other cities and states.

That last one is truly precious.  You found 27 people who posted stuff to a site about why they want to leave (or already left) Houston.  27 out of 5.25 million.  Yeah, that really tells us something, doesn't it?  Sheesh.

And regarding your tag line.  You know you could save yourself a lot of time and money by just taking your wife down to the Arkansas River.  ;-)

[snopes]

Wrong OilCaps. Look at the stats again. Apparently you refuse to read, but judging from those with a high school degree or higher in Houston I see that there is a 25% chance of that not being possible. I do not deny that Tulsa has its problems, but you see - most of Davaz' posts are about how Tulsa is so backward and Houston is sooo much more prefereable. I am merely disputing that using some of the typical tex-donkey smack talk attitude. It goes both ways.

Oops, that's actually a 30% chance of not having a high-school education in Houston - my bad.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

Wrong OilCaps. Look at the stats again. Apparently you refuse to read, but judging from those with a high school degree or higher in Houston I see that there is a 25% chance of that not being possible. I do not deny that Tulsa has its problems, but you see - most of Davaz' posts are about how Tulsa is so backward and Houston is sooo much more prefereable. I am merely disputing that using some of the typical tex-donkey smack talk attitude. It goes both ways.

Oops, that's actually a 30% chance of not having a high-school education in Houston - my bad.

And there you go again.  I'll just let the ridiculous personal attacks slide.  

Perhaps I overstated it a bit when I said that all the linked stats were about states;  but the fact is that all the stats given to us in the post (and the purpose of the links was just to support those stats) were about states, not metro areas.  The responses have decidedly not even attempted to address any of the points in Tulitlikeitis' post.

Trust me, I can read quite well.  And BTW, I live in Tulsa, not Houston.

[snopes]

As for some more specific city to city comparisons between Tulsa and Houston - and these are quality of life issues having nothing to do with who has a bigger football stadiums, more people, or who has more of those stupid ugly glass buildings.

Tulsa has

*Better weather - we have four seasons
*Fall foliage
*Less unemployment
*The architecture in Downtown Tulsa is stunning. Houston? LOL!
*Shorter commute times
*Less creepy, crawly bugs. I see those things everytime I go to Houston on restaurant windows looking in like starving children and it makes me lose my appetite.
*Snow days
*Easier to navigate streets
*Less humidity
*More of a community feel because of its size
*Less sprawl
*Less of a distance to travel and see nature
*Hills

And there are many more. If you'll look at the list, these items have nothing to do with which cities have more fortune 500 companies, mega malls, or airports. These are things that directly affect a person's quality of life on a daily basis. I realize some of the things such as snow and less humidity are more specific to me but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that likes the weather in Houston. It simply stinks.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

As for some more specific city to city comparisons between Tulsa and Houston - and these are quality of life issues having nothing to do with who has a bigger football stadiums, more people, or who has more of those stupid ugly glass buildings.

Tulsa has

*Better weather - we have four seasons
*Fall foliage
*Less unemployment
*The architecture in Downtown Tulsa is stunning. Houston? LOL!
*Shorter commute times
*Less creepy, crawly bugs. I see those things everytime I go to Houston on restaurant windows looking in like starving children and it makes me lose my appetite.
*Snow days
*Easier to navigate streets
*Less humidity
*More of a community feel because of its size
*Less sprawl
*Less of a distance to travel and see nature
*Hills

And there are many more. If you'll look at the list, these items have nothing to do with which cities have more fortune 500 companies, mega malls, or airports. These are things that directly affect a person's quality of life on a daily basis. I realize some of the things such as snow and less humidity are more specific to me but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that likes the weather in Houston. It simply stinks.

Who asked for a comparison to Houston?

[Oil Capital]

Oops

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

Wrong OilCaps. Look at the stats again. Apparently you refuse to read, but judging from those with a high school degree or higher in Houston I see that there is a 25% chance of that not being possible. I do not deny that Tulsa has its problems, but you see - most of Davaz' posts are about how Tulsa is so backward and Houston is sooo much more prefereable. I am merely disputing that using some of the typical tex-donkey smack talk attitude. It goes both ways.

Oops, that's actually a 30% chance of not having a high-school education in Houston - my bad.

And there you go again.  I'll just let the ridiculous personal attacks slide.  

Perhaps I overstated it a bit when I said that all the linked stats were about states;  but the fact is that all the stats given to us in the post (and the purpose of the links was just to support those stats) were about states, not metro areas.

Trust me, I can read quite well.  And BTW, I live in Tulsa, not Houston.

Okay, I apologize to you if I've offended you with what you considered personal attacks; it's not my nature and it's not condusive to our argument. I get rather heated when it comes to stuff like this from Texans because I lived there for five years and heard this kind of crap on a daily basis.

Would you please go back and re-read your most recent post though? You say that you overstated it a bit when you said that all of the linked stats were about states and not metro areas and then you go on and immediately contradict yourself in the sentence that follows.

"but the fact is that all the stats given to us in the post (and the purpose of the links was just to support those stats) were about states, not metro areas."

I've provided plenty of city stats to back up my claims, that Tulsa is not some shambles of a city and is indeed a better place to live (in my opinion), not to mention some more direct life experience type items (see list in other post), but the most I see coming from the other side of the argument is

*Tulsa is backward
*You drive funny cars
*You don't have a equitable dispersion of wealth (something that stats do NOT back up)
*We have more fortune 500 companies than you...

Am I getting my point across any clearer? Sure, Tulsa has ALOT of problems that I would dearly love to see addressed, but I'm not on a Houston forum bashing the city left and right calling them backward.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

As for some more specific city to city comparisons between Tulsa and Houston - and these are quality of life issues having nothing to do with who has a bigger football stadiums, more people, or who has more of those stupid ugly glass buildings.

Tulsa has

*Better weather - we have four seasons
*Fall foliage
*Less unemployment
*The architecture in Downtown Tulsa is stunning. Houston? LOL!
*Shorter commute times
*Less creepy, crawly bugs. I see those things everytime I go to Houston on restaurant windows looking in like starving children and it makes me lose my appetite.
*Snow days
*Easier to navigate streets
*Less humidity
*More of a community feel because of its size
*Less sprawl
*Less of a distance to travel and see nature
*Hills

And there are many more. If you'll look at the list, these items have nothing to do with which cities have more fortune 500 companies, mega malls, or airports. These are things that directly affect a person's quality of life on a daily basis. I realize some of the things such as snow and less humidity are more specific to me but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that likes the weather in Houston. It simply stinks.

Who asked for a comparison to Houston?

I'm wondering Oil Capital if you've actually been reading the threads on this post. I can understand why you may have not, since it's rather long. Tulit.. or Davaz currently lives in Houston, many of the statements that he has made about Tulsa being backward are in direct comparison to cities in Texas like Houston, where he currently professes to live and is, in his opinion, far superior due to the number of fortune 500 companies that choose to dwell there.