Hey, what happend to the crappy post from...

[jdb]

That's it for me.

I tried to restart a "crappy post" because the dude said he knew where all the TN members ate, slept, peed, and even which branch each of us applied for our food stamps at.

I've seen nothing of the sort. Just some worming around. (which is polite for saying, "liar".)

But what I have REALLY seen here is yet again this dude pretending to be someone new, again, signs up on a Tulsa forum to blast Tulsa.

He's busted as a troll again but keeps right on going?
Best defense is he is trying to save us from ourselves because we still live here.
Or he's just not right in the head.

I have enough of my own and very real problems to deal with, unlike Hometown (I guess) and am more than willing to concider this dude a pitifull, waste and leave him to himself - for whatever kakamanie reasons he cares to conjure up.

To storm off angry and then spend every day after, reliving what made one angry  - from a far away place - is *ucking nutty and the same as never leaving in the first place.

Better him then I on that note, jdb

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

People reading this thread would do well to read a recent NYTimes article titled "Cities Compete in Hipness Battle to Attract Young," Dewan and Goodman, 11-25-06. An excerpt from that article is quoted below:

" ... The problem for cities, says Richard Florida, a public policy professor at George Mason University who has written about what he calls ''the creative class,'' is that those cities that already have a significant share of the young and restless are in the best position to attract more.
''There are a dozen places, at best, that are becoming magnets for these people,'' Mr. Florida said.
That disparity was evident in a report released this week by the Metropolitan Atlanta Chamber of Commerce, which showed Atlanta leading the pack among big cities, while other metro areas, like Philadelphia, hemorrhaged young people from 1990 to 2000. (In this competition, surveys that make a city look good are a favorite opening salvo.)
In that decade, the Atlanta study said, the number of 25- to-34-year-olds with four-year college degrees in the city increased by 46 percent, placing Atlanta in the top five metropolitan areas in terms of growth rate, and a close second to San Francisco in terms of overall numbers. Charlotte, N.C., also outperformed Atlanta, with a growth rate of 57 percent, the second highest in the country after Las Vegas.  ..."

Do any of you think Tulsa can compete in this league? Get a grip.

As things stand Tulsa could not win a Hipness competition with those cities.  But if Tulsa's pay scale was competitive with those towns it could be a contender.

By the way I find that Tulsa is not so much hip as it is very family and children orientated.  I still think that this is a great place to grow up.  

It's just not a great place to earn the income that a family really needs.  My hat is off to the people that have had to earn a living here.

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

That's it for me.

I tried to restart a "crappy post" because the dude said he knew where all the TN members ate, slept, peed, and even which branch each of us applied for our food stamps at.

I've seen nothing of the sort. Just some worming around. (which is polite for saying, "liar".)

But what I have REALLY seen here is yet again this dude pretending to be someone new, again, signs up on a Tulsa forum to blast Tulsa.

He's busted as a troll again but keeps right on going?
Best defense is he is trying to save us from ourselves because we still live here.
Or he's just not right in the head.

I have enough of my own and very real problems to deal with, unlike Hometown (I guess) and am more than willing to concider this dude a pitifull, waste and leave him to himself - for whatever kakamanie reasons he cares to conjure up.

To storm off angry and then spend every day after, reliving what made one angry  - from a far away place - is *ucking nutty and the same as never leaving in the first place.

Better him then I on that note, jdb

Did you see the thread where Michael Bates told who everyone was and where they worked?  "Neptune is actually ... and he works at ...," etc.  I thought, give him long enough and the man will memorize every name in town.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

As for some more specific city to city comparisons between Tulsa and Houston - and these are quality of life issues having nothing to do with who has a bigger football stadiums, more people, or who has more of those stupid ugly glass buildings.

Tulsa has

*Better weather - we have four seasons
*Fall foliage
*Less unemployment
*The architecture in Downtown Tulsa is stunning. Houston? LOL!
*Shorter commute times
*Less creepy, crawly bugs. I see those things everytime I go to Houston on restaurant windows looking in like starving children and it makes me lose my appetite.
*Snow days
*Easier to navigate streets
*Less humidity
*More of a community feel because of its size
*Less sprawl
*Less of a distance to travel and see nature
*Hills

And there are many more. If you'll look at the list, these items have nothing to do with which cities have more fortune 500 companies, mega malls, or airports. These are things that directly affect a person's quality of life on a daily basis. I realize some of the things such as snow and less humidity are more specific to me but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that likes the weather in Houston. It simply stinks.

Who asked for a comparison to Houston?

I'm wondering Oil Capital if you've actually been reading the threads on this post. I can understand why you may have not, since it's rather long. Tulit.. or Davaz currently lives in Houston, many of the statements that he has made about Tulsa being backward are in direct comparison to cities in Texas like Houston, where he currently professes to live and is, in his opinion, far superior due to the number of fortune 500 companies that choose to dwell there.

No, I have not read this entire thread.  Because most of it is very tedious and childish.  As I said in my post above, I was hoping that when Tulitlikeitis actually appeared to be attempting to engage in a mature, civil, non-trashing conversation he could get a like response.  But that was not to be.  I'm not talking about the previous pages of this thread.  I'm talking about this page, today.

Although his tone was a little more civilized earlier on in this thread, mainly thanks to Hometown's responses, his latest post was to say (and I quote) THIS IS A BUNCH OF CRAP! And, this thread and Davaz has a long history on this board. History doesn't matter to you? Well, it matters to me.

Speaking of going off on side issues...History in general matters to me.  The history of this thread does NOT.

His "This is a bunch of crap" response was to AZbadpuppy's response, which was indeed a bunch of crap.  That was a totally fair and acurate response.  For the very reasons I have already gone into.  It did not address or respond to Tul's post.  It just threw a bunch of irrelevant statistics comparing OK and TX, which was NOT what Tul's post was about.  Got it?

And your thoughts in response to Tul's post?  (Mine in a post above.)

Actually, you are wrong again. Tul said, and I quote: "The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak."

If you are going to come and bash poverty in Oklahoma and you are from Texas, then you really prove what an idiot you truly are.

When presented with CITY statistics for Houston and Tulsa, you didn't much like that either, did you? Unless I missed something, Davaz does live in Houston, no? the place that is supposedly so much better than the poor backward hole that is Tulsa?

Sorry if you don't like the facts, but the truth hurts sometimes.

Well done. You managed to cherry-pick one little throw-away line out of an otherwise reasonable and thoughtful post to hang your hat on.  (And by the way, I already noted my disagreement with that line.)  Where did I say anything about "not liking the facts" you and Snopes posted?  I honestly did not pay much attention to your and Snopes' comparison statistics, because, as I have repeatedly noted, they were not relevant to the subject of the discussion some of us were attempting to have.  We can all dig up statistics that show the negative side of any city we want to focus on.  Unless they relate to the primary subject being discussed,what's the point?  

Whatever your past problems and issues with this guy may be (and I honestly don't know or care), this posting on this page of this thread was pretty reasonable and worthy of a thoughtful discussion.

Now, in one more attempt to have an actual discussion on the subject, do you not think it is logical and/or possible that Tulsa might have lost a good chunk of its upper-middle-class/professional people over the past few years?

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

As for some more specific city to city comparisons between Tulsa and Houston - and these are quality of life issues having nothing to do with who has a bigger football stadiums, more people, or who has more of those stupid ugly glass buildings.

Tulsa has

*Better weather - we have four seasons
*Fall foliage
*Less unemployment
*The architecture in Downtown Tulsa is stunning. Houston? LOL!
*Shorter commute times
*Less creepy, crawly bugs. I see those things everytime I go to Houston on restaurant windows looking in like starving children and it makes me lose my appetite.
*Snow days
*Easier to navigate streets
*Less humidity
*More of a community feel because of its size
*Less sprawl
*Less of a distance to travel and see nature
*Hills

And there are many more. If you'll look at the list, these items have nothing to do with which cities have more fortune 500 companies, mega malls, or airports. These are things that directly affect a person's quality of life on a daily basis. I realize some of the things such as snow and less humidity are more specific to me but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that likes the weather in Houston. It simply stinks.

Who asked for a comparison to Houston?

I'm wondering Oil Capital if you've actually been reading the threads on this post. I can understand why you may have not, since it's rather long. Tulit.. or Davaz currently lives in Houston, many of the statements that he has made about Tulsa being backward are in direct comparison to cities in Texas like Houston, where he currently professes to live and is, in his opinion, far superior due to the number of fortune 500 companies that choose to dwell there.

No, I have not read this entire thread.  Because most of it is very tedious and childish.  As I said in my post above, I was hoping that when Tulitlikeitis actually appeared to be attempting to engage in a mature, civil, non-trashing conversation he could get a like response.  But that was not to be.  I'm not talking about the previous pages of this thread.  I'm talking about this page, today.

Although his tone was a little more civilized earlier on in this thread, mainly thanks to Hometown's responses, his latest post was to say (and I quote) THIS IS A BUNCH OF CRAP! And, this thread and Davaz has a long history on this board. History doesn't matter to you? Well, it matters to me.

Speaking of going off on side issues...History in general matters to me.  The history of this thread does NOT.

His "This is a bunch of crap" response was to AZbadpuppy's response, which was indeed a bunch of crap.  That was a totally fair and acurate response.  For the very reasons I have already gone into.  It did not address or respond to Tul's post.  It just threw a bunch of irrelevant statistics comparing OK and TX, which was NOT what Tul's post was about.  Got it?

And your thoughts in response to Tul's post?  (Mine in a post above.)

Actually, you are wrong again. Tul said, and I quote: "The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak."

If you are going to come and bash poverty in Oklahoma and you are from Texas, then you really prove what an idiot you truly are.

When presented with CITY statistics for Houston and Tulsa, you didn't much like that either, did you? Unless I missed something, Davaz does live in Houston, no? the place that is supposedly so much better than the poor backward hole that is Tulsa?

Sorry if you don't like the facts, but the truth hurts sometimes.

Well done. You managed to cherry-pick one little throw-away line out of an otherwise reasonable and thoughtful post to hang your hat on.  (And by the way, I already noted my disagreement with that line.)  Where did I say anything about "not liking the facts" you and Snopes posted?  I honestly did not pay much attention to your and Snopes' comparison statistics, because, as I have repeatedly noted, they were not relevant to the subject of the discussion some of us were attempting to have.  We can all dig up statistics that show the negative side of any city we want to focus on.  Unless they relate to the primary subject being discussed,what's the point?  

Whatever your past problems and issues with this guy may be (and I honestly don't know or care), this posting on this page of this thread was pretty reasonable and worthy of a thoughtful discussion.

Now, in one more attempt to have an actual discussion on the subject, do you not think it is logical and/or possible that Tulsa might have lost a good chunk of its upper-middle-class/professional people over the past few years?

You are missing the point entirely. Davaz is not, nor was he ever attempting to have a rational discussion about Tulsa. All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX. Same crap I've always heard from so many people from TX. BORING!

I for one think this is a sad and pathetic attempt to make himself feel better, because obviously he is a lonely unhappy person with nothing better to do. I also am a bit tired of his spamming this board with the same nonsense that very few (save for yourself or hometown) care to hear about.

The bottom line is, it's no mystery that Tulsa has seen better days. The truth is that in the 60's thru the 80's Tulsa was one of the fastest growing cities in America, with incredible resources, limitless job opportunities and a proud, caring populace. The feeling was that there was nothing that could not happen here. If you want a good snapshot of the vibe of Tulsa back then you should find a copy of the National Geographic Magazine from 1983, I think April's issue titled 'High Flying Tulsa'. If Tulsa had continued on that path it would rival Dallas, Houston, etc today.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you talk to) Tulsa did not stay on that path, having lost much of its resources with the oil bust in the early 80's.

Those of us that lived in Tulsa and know it from that time period realize what this city can achieve because we've all seen it. We actually want Tulsa to succeed and become the incredible city she once was, even to surpass it.

So fortune 500 companies haven't relocated here yet- so what? Tulsa has incredible potential because the bones are still intact. The people that live here are some of the most caring, hard working and civic minded people I have encountered anywhere- and I've lived in a lot of cities. The fact that Tulsa has a rich heritage of architecture and supporting the arts only enhances the city and will be an invaluable asset for future growth for these things are very difficult to replace. Also, the fact that Tulsa has survived as well as it has over the past 2+ decades is a testament to
itself and the people that live there. Have many of the middle class jobs moved away in search of better economies? Of course. Will they return once Tulsa's economy improves (see OKC)? You bet. Tulsa will be more ready than ever to embace the positive changes that inevitably will arrive.

Sure Tulsa has its share of problems, but at least most of the people on this board are here trying to have intelligent discussions for positive ideas and solutions. Continually coming to the board (over 10+ times as different incarnations) where your only intention is to berate and belittle everyone to make yourself feel superior is nothing short of sociopathic behavior and should not be allowed IMO.

[brunoflipper]

you may not "know or care" but he is "a loony"... he has proven to be genuinely delusional... beyond that, schizotypal, narcissistic, histrionic- it's a hell of a mix...

he has never in four years attempted to have a productive discourse about tulsa's shortcomings...

the immaturity of his concrete thought processes is astounding... his reliance on logical fallacies (non sequitur, straw man, stacked deck,  bifurcation, ad hominem- you name it, he loves them all) is second to none...

as such, his posts have not warranted debate in several years...

he is to be pitied... he's our gollum...


on topic: it is quite obvious that tulsa has lost a number of professional (upper class/upper middle class) jobs in the past 10 years... was that the question?

[Hometown]

I remember Tulsa's high flying days from the early 80s and I would like to point out it was "oil" not "diversification away from oil" that made it happen.  And Tulsa was well into the diversification thing when the 80s rolled around.

AZbadpuppy, wouldn't you admit that serious discussion usually involves disagreement and criticism?  Every time Davaz has reappeared as a new personality and started lobbing his criticism I thought – now we are finally going to have a real conversation.  Then I'm disappointed to find out it is Davaz again.

This is a question:  In the past haven't the administrators barred Davaz and forced him to assume new personalities in order to continue to participate?

I am well aware of being a guest here at TulsaNow and I like the electronic community the administrators have created.  But I also think it is unhealthy for a forum to discourage open and frank criticism.  Sort of like Bush not tolerating any disagreement.  It's unhealthy.  It's propaganda, not discussion.

And you are right AZbadpuppy, Tulsa still has good bones despite all the hair-brained destruction and development that has happened over the past 30 years.

[Hometown]

Bruno, this is a real question.  How has Davaz proven to be genuinely delusional?

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I remember Tulsa's high flying days from the early 80s and I would like to point out it was "oil" not "diversification away from oil" that made it happen.  And Tulsa was well into the diversification thing when the 80s rolled around.

AZbadpuppy, wouldn't you admit that serious discussion usually involves disagreement and criticism?  Every time Davaz has reappeared as a new personality and started lobbing his criticism I thought – now we are finally going to have a real conversation.  Then I'm disappointed to find out it is Davaz again.

This is a question:  In the past haven't the administrators barred Davaz and forced him to assume new personalities in order to continue to participate?

I am well aware of being a guest here at TulsaNow and I like the electronic community the administrators have created.  But I also think it is unhealthy for a forum to discourage open and frank criticism.  Sort of like Bush not tolerating any disagreement.  It's unhealthy.  It's propaganda, not discussion.

And you are right AZbadpuppy, Tulsa still has good bones despite all the hair-brained destruction and development that has happened over the past 30 years.

I am all for disagreement and criticism, but that is not what we are talking about here. It is obvious that Davaz has no intention of having healthy debates. His mind is made up and he seems hell bent on trying to make up everyone else's mind too. Kinda sad really.

I believe the majority has spoken and we really do not want the type of unproductive rantings that Davaz brings to the table. If he ever did present a constructive argument with constructive feedback then I think things would have been different. Why should one person be allowed to participate when they do not work well with others and create disruption rather than stimulate intelligent conversation?

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I remember Tulsa's high flying days from the early 80s and I would like to point out it was "oil" not "diversification away from oil" that made it happen.  And Tulsa was well into the diversification thing when the 80s rolled around.

AZbadpuppy, wouldn't you admit that serious discussion usually involves disagreement and criticism?  Every time Davaz has reappeared as a new personality and started lobbing his criticism I thought – now we are finally going to have a real conversation.  Then I'm disappointed to find out it is Davaz again.

This is a question:  In the past haven't the administrators barred Davaz and forced him to assume new personalities in order to continue to participate?

I am well aware of being a guest here at TulsaNow and I like the electronic community the administrators have created.  But I also think it is unhealthy for a forum to discourage open and frank criticism.  Sort of like Bush not tolerating any disagreement.  It's unhealthy.  It's propaganda, not discussion.

And you are right AZbadpuppy, Tulsa still has good bones despite all the hair-brained destruction and development that has happened over the past 30 years.

I am all for disagreement and criticism, but that is not what we are talking about here. It is obvious that Davaz has no intention of having healthy debates. His mind is made up and he seems hell bent on trying to make up everyone else's mind too. Kinda sad really.

I believe the majority has spoken and we really do not want the type of unproductive rantings that Davaz brings to the table. If he ever did present a constructive argument with constructive feedback then I think things would have been different. Why should one person be allowed to participate when they do not work well with others and create disruption rather than stimulate intelligent conversation?

Whether or not Davaz should be allowed to participate has never been put to a vote.

Remember junior high and the cooty kid?  Each school had one.  Remember how cruel the group was to that individual?  There's just something about some people that makes them want to pile on when they sense weakness in someone.

I've participated in this group for about two years and I've never seen Davaz post anything that was very different from what some other people here post.  Of course, I may have missed something.

Freedom and openess is disorderly.  And I would say that one of Tulsa's problems is that it has more than its share of control freaks.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Bruno, this is a real question.  How has Davaz proven to be genuinely delusional?

i "neither have the time nor inclination" to hunt through his archived posts but the statements, which predate both you and i, are there...

he holds to a series of fixed, false beliefs (i.e. everything in tulsa sucks or everyone who lives in tulsa is an idiot)... despite how patently implausible his generalizations may be, he is absolutely certain he is correct and his convictions are immutable regardless of contrary evidence... when i said he is narcissistic, i meant it...

he is by no means the victim here, but i respect your concern for him...

[Oil Capital]

quote:

You are missing the point entirely. Davaz is not, nor was he ever attempting to have a rational discussion about Tulsa. All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX. Same crap I've always heard from so many people from TX. BORING!

I for one think this is a sad and pathetic attempt to make himself feel better, because obviously he is a lonely unhappy person with nothing better to do. I also am a bit tired of his spamming this board with the same nonsense that very few (save for yourself or hometown) care to hear about.

The bottom line is, it's no mystery that Tulsa has seen better days. The truth is that in the 60's thru the 80's Tulsa was one of the fastest growing cities in America, with incredible resources, limitless job opportunities and a proud, caring populace. The feeling was that there was nothing that could not happen here. If you want a good snapshot of the vibe of Tulsa back then you should find a copy of the National Geographic Magazine from 1983, I think April's issue titled 'High Flying Tulsa'. If Tulsa had continued on that path it would rival Dallas, Houston, etc today.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you talk to) Tulsa did not stay on that path, having lost much of its resources with the oil bust in the early 80's.

Those of us that lived in Tulsa and know it from that time period realize what this city can achieve because we've all seen it. We actually want Tulsa to succeed and become the incredible city she once was, even to surpass it.

So fortune 500 companies haven't relocated here yet- so what? Tulsa has incredible potential because the bones are still intact. The people that live here are some of the most caring, hard working and civic minded people I have encountered anywhere- and I've lived in a lot of cities. The fact that Tulsa has a rich heritage of architecture and supporting the arts only enhances the city and will be an invaluable asset for future growth for these things are very difficult to replace. Also, the fact that Tulsa has survived as well as it has over the past 2+ decades is a testament to
itself and the people that live there. Have many of the middle class jobs moved away in search of better economies? Of course. Will they return once Tulsa's economy improves (see OKC)? You bet. Tulsa will be more ready than ever to embace the positive changes that inevitably will arrive.

Sure Tulsa has its share of problems, but at least most of the people on this board are here trying to have intelligent discussions for positive ideas and solutions. Continually coming to the board (over 10+ times as different incarnations) where your only intention is to berate and belittle everyone to make yourself feel superior is nothing short of sociopathic behavior and should not be allowed IMO.

No, I'm afraid you're missing the point.  Whatever his past history (and I agree it does seem a bit odd for him to keep coming back under different disguises; but I also thinks it's quite amusing), your statement that "All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX." is demonstrably and obviously false.    Let it go.   Here, once agains is the post we (some of us) are attempting to discuss:

"Hometown – you posted a thoughtful note and I will try and post an equally thoughtful response.

I really don't know what is wrong with Tulsa but at this stage of my life, I neither have the time nor the inclination to wait for an upturn. Tulsa's problems have been a long time in the making and will require a long time to mend ... if ever.

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1. Wealthy
2. Upper Middle Class Professional
3. Middle Class
4. Lower Middle Class
5. Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1. Wealthy
2. Lower Middle Class
3. Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

To someone with resources, Tulsa is not an attractive place. The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak. Of course, there is terrible poverty in any city ... Houston, LA, NYC, etc. The problem is that in Tulsa it seems in your face wherever you turn.

Like I said ... I came, looked around and did not like what I saw and left. I am not the only one ... the so-called "brain-drain" at the two big state schools continues unabated. They know the reality even if the cheerleaders on this board refuse to admit it."

He barely referred to Texas or Houston at all, and when he did it was to acknowledge that it, along with every city has terrible poverty as well.  It has been only you and Snopes who have attempted to turn this into a giant Houston vs. Tulsa party. It seems rather sad and pathetic (to use your words) that the response to a rather mildly critical observation of the reality in Tulsa is the equivalent, of "Yeah, so's your mother."  ;-)

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:

You are missing the point entirely. Davaz is not, nor was he ever attempting to have a rational discussion about Tulsa. All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX. Same crap I've always heard from so many people from TX. BORING!

I for one think this is a sad and pathetic attempt to make himself feel better, because obviously he is a lonely unhappy person with nothing better to do. I also am a bit tired of his spamming this board with the same nonsense that very few (save for yourself or hometown) care to hear about.

The bottom line is, it's no mystery that Tulsa has seen better days. The truth is that in the 60's thru the 80's Tulsa was one of the fastest growing cities in America, with incredible resources, limitless job opportunities and a proud, caring populace. The feeling was that there was nothing that could not happen here. If you want a good snapshot of the vibe of Tulsa back then you should find a copy of the National Geographic Magazine from 1983, I think April's issue titled 'High Flying Tulsa'. If Tulsa had continued on that path it would rival Dallas, Houston, etc today.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you talk to) Tulsa did not stay on that path, having lost much of its resources with the oil bust in the early 80's.

Those of us that lived in Tulsa and know it from that time period realize what this city can achieve because we've all seen it. We actually want Tulsa to succeed and become the incredible city she once was, even to surpass it.

So fortune 500 companies haven't relocated here yet- so what? Tulsa has incredible potential because the bones are still intact. The people that live here are some of the most caring, hard working and civic minded people I have encountered anywhere- and I've lived in a lot of cities. The fact that Tulsa has a rich heritage of architecture and supporting the arts only enhances the city and will be an invaluable asset for future growth for these things are very difficult to replace. Also, the fact that Tulsa has survived as well as it has over the past 2+ decades is a testament to
itself and the people that live there. Have many of the middle class jobs moved away in search of better economies? Of course. Will they return once Tulsa's economy improves (see OKC)? You bet. Tulsa will be more ready than ever to embace the positive changes that inevitably will arrive.

Sure Tulsa has its share of problems, but at least most of the people on this board are here trying to have intelligent discussions for positive ideas and solutions. Continually coming to the board (over 10+ times as different incarnations) where your only intention is to berate and belittle everyone to make yourself feel superior is nothing short of sociopathic behavior and should not be allowed IMO.

No, I'm afraid you're missing the point.  Whatever his past history (and I agree it does seem a bit odd for him to keep coming back under different disguises; but I also thinks it's quite amusing), your statement that "All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX." is demonstrably and obviously false.    Let it go.   Here, once agains is the post we (some of us) are attempting to discuss:

"Hometown – you posted a thoughtful note and I will try and post an equally thoughtful response.

I really don't know what is wrong with Tulsa but at this stage of my life, I neither have the time nor the inclination to wait for an upturn. Tulsa's problems have been a long time in the making and will require a long time to mend ... if ever.

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1. Wealthy
2. Upper Middle Class Professional
3. Middle Class
4. Lower Middle Class
5. Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1. Wealthy
2. Lower Middle Class
3. Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

To someone with resources, Tulsa is not an attractive place. The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak. Of course, there is terrible poverty in any city ... Houston, LA, NYC, etc. The problem is that in Tulsa it seems in your face wherever you turn.

Like I said ... I came, looked around and did not like what I saw and left. I am not the only one ... the so-called "brain-drain" at the two big state schools continues unabated. They know the reality even if the cheerleaders on this board refuse to admit it."

He barely referred to Texas or Houston at all, and when he did it was to acknowledge that it, along with every city has terrible poverty as well.  It has been only you and Snopes who have attempted to turn this into a giant Houston vs. Tulsa party. It seems rather sad and pathetic (to use your words) that the response to a rather mildly critical observation of the reality in Tulsa is the equivalent, of "Yeah, so's your mother."  ;-)

Your ignorance of previous posts is obvious, and is the reason for this entire thread to begin with. This 'discussion' did not originate with the above mentioned post.  You simply have chosen to ignore anything prior to it.

Davaz has never been 'mildly' critical, btw and his arguments have very little factual base, but instead relay an obsessive, opinionated, and bias judgement for which most people on this board have called him on.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:

You are missing the point entirely. Davaz is not, nor was he ever attempting to have a rational discussion about Tulsa. All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX. Same crap I've always heard from so many people from TX. BORING!

I for one think this is a sad and pathetic attempt to make himself feel better, because obviously he is a lonely unhappy person with nothing better to do. I also am a bit tired of his spamming this board with the same nonsense that very few (save for yourself or hometown) care to hear about.

The bottom line is, it's no mystery that Tulsa has seen better days. The truth is that in the 60's thru the 80's Tulsa was one of the fastest growing cities in America, with incredible resources, limitless job opportunities and a proud, caring populace. The feeling was that there was nothing that could not happen here. If you want a good snapshot of the vibe of Tulsa back then you should find a copy of the National Geographic Magazine from 1983, I think April's issue titled 'High Flying Tulsa'. If Tulsa had continued on that path it would rival Dallas, Houston, etc today.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you talk to) Tulsa did not stay on that path, having lost much of its resources with the oil bust in the early 80's.

Those of us that lived in Tulsa and know it from that time period realize what this city can achieve because we've all seen it. We actually want Tulsa to succeed and become the incredible city she once was, even to surpass it.

So fortune 500 companies haven't relocated here yet- so what? Tulsa has incredible potential because the bones are still intact. The people that live here are some of the most caring, hard working and civic minded people I have encountered anywhere- and I've lived in a lot of cities. The fact that Tulsa has a rich heritage of architecture and supporting the arts only enhances the city and will be an invaluable asset for future growth for these things are very difficult to replace. Also, the fact that Tulsa has survived as well as it has over the past 2+ decades is a testament to
itself and the people that live there. Have many of the middle class jobs moved away in search of better economies? Of course. Will they return once Tulsa's economy improves (see OKC)? You bet. Tulsa will be more ready than ever to embace the positive changes that inevitably will arrive.

Sure Tulsa has its share of problems, but at least most of the people on this board are here trying to have intelligent discussions for positive ideas and solutions. Continually coming to the board (over 10+ times as different incarnations) where your only intention is to berate and belittle everyone to make yourself feel superior is nothing short of sociopathic behavior and should not be allowed IMO.

No, I'm afraid you're missing the point.  Whatever his past history (and I agree it does seem a bit odd for him to keep coming back under different disguises; but I also thinks it's quite amusing), your statement that "All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX." is demonstrably and obviously false.    Let it go.   Here, once agains is the post we (some of us) are attempting to discuss:

"Hometown – you posted a thoughtful note and I will try and post an equally thoughtful response.

I really don't know what is wrong with Tulsa but at this stage of my life, I neither have the time nor the inclination to wait for an upturn. Tulsa's problems have been a long time in the making and will require a long time to mend ... if ever.

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1. Wealthy
2. Upper Middle Class Professional
3. Middle Class
4. Lower Middle Class
5. Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1. Wealthy
2. Lower Middle Class
3. Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

To someone with resources, Tulsa is not an attractive place. The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak. Of course, there is terrible poverty in any city ... Houston, LA, NYC, etc. The problem is that in Tulsa it seems in your face wherever you turn.

Like I said ... I came, looked around and did not like what I saw and left. I am not the only one ... the so-called "brain-drain" at the two big state schools continues unabated. They know the reality even if the cheerleaders on this board refuse to admit it."

He barely referred to Texas or Houston at all, and when he did it was to acknowledge that it, along with every city has terrible poverty as well.  It has been only you and Snopes who have attempted to turn this into a giant Houston vs. Tulsa party. It seems rather sad and pathetic (to use your words) that the response to a rather mildly critical observation of the reality in Tulsa is the equivalent, of "Yeah, so's your mother."  ;-)

Your ignorance of previous posts is obvious, and is the reason for this entire thread to begin with. This 'discussion' did not originate with the above mentioned post.  You simply have chosen to ignore anything prior to it.

Davaz has never been 'mildly' critical, btw and his arguments have very little factual base, but instead relay an obsessive, opinionated, and bias judgement for which most people on this board have called him on.

Yes, I am intentionally ignorant of the prior posts and would just as soon stay that way.  And, yes I am choosing to ignore anything prior to this discussion, because Hometown and, it appears, Tulitlikeitis, were attempting to steer the discussion in a serious, respectful direction, making the prior posts irrelevant.  (Yes, I believe in redemption.)  But you would have none of that!  

And once again your statement that he has never been 'mildly' critical is demonstrably, obviously false.  Where in the post we are attempting to discuss is there anything beyond mild criticism?  Why can't you just discuss the thoughts about Tulsa without dredging up your past issues?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1. Wealthy
2. Upper Middle Class Professional
3. Middle Class
4. Lower Middle Class
5. Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1. Wealthy
2. Lower Middle Class
3. Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

I'm going to ask you to come up with some census numbers and show this is true before I bother to rebut.  Your evidence is barely anecdotal - you don't even give specific experience, let alone specific statistics.

Your contention that the middle class in Tulsa has been "seriously reduced" is laughable.  Ha.  I'm laughing at you.  Because I know you're wrong.  And don't show me a 3% decrease in the second quintile of income.  I want to see a "serious reduction."