Hey, what happend to the crappy post from...

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:

You are missing the point entirely. Davaz is not, nor was he ever attempting to have a rational discussion about Tulsa. All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX. Same crap I've always heard from so many people from TX. BORING!

I for one think this is a sad and pathetic attempt to make himself feel better, because obviously he is a lonely unhappy person with nothing better to do. I also am a bit tired of his spamming this board with the same nonsense that very few (save for yourself or hometown) care to hear about.

The bottom line is, it's no mystery that Tulsa has seen better days. The truth is that in the 60's thru the 80's Tulsa was one of the fastest growing cities in America, with incredible resources, limitless job opportunities and a proud, caring populace. The feeling was that there was nothing that could not happen here. If you want a good snapshot of the vibe of Tulsa back then you should find a copy of the National Geographic Magazine from 1983, I think April's issue titled 'High Flying Tulsa'. If Tulsa had continued on that path it would rival Dallas, Houston, etc today.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you talk to) Tulsa did not stay on that path, having lost much of its resources with the oil bust in the early 80's.

Those of us that lived in Tulsa and know it from that time period realize what this city can achieve because we've all seen it. We actually want Tulsa to succeed and become the incredible city she once was, even to surpass it.

So fortune 500 companies haven't relocated here yet- so what? Tulsa has incredible potential because the bones are still intact. The people that live here are some of the most caring, hard working and civic minded people I have encountered anywhere- and I've lived in a lot of cities. The fact that Tulsa has a rich heritage of architecture and supporting the arts only enhances the city and will be an invaluable asset for future growth for these things are very difficult to replace. Also, the fact that Tulsa has survived as well as it has over the past 2+ decades is a testament to
itself and the people that live there. Have many of the middle class jobs moved away in search of better economies? Of course. Will they return once Tulsa's economy improves (see OKC)? You bet. Tulsa will be more ready than ever to embace the positive changes that inevitably will arrive.

Sure Tulsa has its share of problems, but at least most of the people on this board are here trying to have intelligent discussions for positive ideas and solutions. Continually coming to the board (over 10+ times as different incarnations) where your only intention is to berate and belittle everyone to make yourself feel superior is nothing short of sociopathic behavior and should not be allowed IMO.

No, I'm afraid you're missing the point.  Whatever his past history (and I agree it does seem a bit odd for him to keep coming back under different disguises; but I also thinks it's quite amusing), your statement that "All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX." is demonstrably and obviously false.    Let it go.   Here, once agains is the post we (some of us) are attempting to discuss:

"Hometown – you posted a thoughtful note and I will try and post an equally thoughtful response.

I really don't know what is wrong with Tulsa but at this stage of my life, I neither have the time nor the inclination to wait for an upturn. Tulsa's problems have been a long time in the making and will require a long time to mend ... if ever.

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1. Wealthy
2. Upper Middle Class Professional
3. Middle Class
4. Lower Middle Class
5. Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1. Wealthy
2. Lower Middle Class
3. Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

To someone with resources, Tulsa is not an attractive place. The hardscrabble poverty in Oklahoma is particularly bleak. Of course, there is terrible poverty in any city ... Houston, LA, NYC, etc. The problem is that in Tulsa it seems in your face wherever you turn.

Like I said ... I came, looked around and did not like what I saw and left. I am not the only one ... the so-called "brain-drain" at the two big state schools continues unabated. They know the reality even if the cheerleaders on this board refuse to admit it."

He barely referred to Texas or Houston at all, and when he did it was to acknowledge that it, along with every city has terrible poverty as well.  It has been only you and Snopes who have attempted to turn this into a giant Houston vs. Tulsa party. It seems rather sad and pathetic (to use your words) that the response to a rather mildly critical observation of the reality in Tulsa is the equivalent, of "Yeah, so's your mother."  ;-)

Your ignorance of previous posts is obvious, and is the reason for this entire thread to begin with. This 'discussion' did not originate with the above mentioned post.  You simply have chosen to ignore anything prior to it.

Davaz has never been 'mildly' critical, btw and his arguments have very little factual base, but instead relay an obsessive, opinionated, and bias judgement for which most people on this board have called him on.

Yes, I am intentionally ignorant of the prior posts and would just as soon stay that way.  And, yes I am choosing to ignore anything prior to this discussion, because Hometown and, it appears, Tulitlikeitis, were attempting to steer the discussion in a serious, respectful direction, making the prior posts irrelevant.  (Yes, I believe in redemption.)  But you would have none of that!  

And once again your statement that he has never been 'mildly' critical is demonstrably, obviously false.  Where in the post we are attempting to discuss is there anything beyond mild criticism?  Why can't you just discuss the thoughts about Tulsa without dredging up your past issues?

The 'thoughts' about Tulsa have been disussed at length by myself (read my post 2 posts ago- try not to 'cherry pick') as well as by numerous other people. Again, you are posting in a thread that you need to go back and see how it was started. If you wish to start a new thread for critcal/thoughful/provocative/constructive debates on the state of Tulsa then please do so. Just be forewarned that it will ultimately be steered off course by (insert whatever new incarnation Davaz has come up with recently) and will result in another pointless thread. This is the reason he keeps getting kicked off. Get it?

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

From a resource perspective, in any city you have about five groups as noted below:

1. Wealthy
2. Upper Middle Class Professional
3. Middle Class
4. Lower Middle Class
5. Poor

Due a national trend of manufacturing job loss and a local trend of energy company loss, the ranks of Tiers 2 and 3 have been decimated in Tulsa. That is not to say that they are gone completely but are seriously reduced. For Tulsa, that now leaves three predominant groups:

1. Wealthy
2. Lower Middle Class
3. Poor

We know this to be true ... one can go on the streets and see it every day. Why is there no change? Because the wealthy want nothing to change (particularly the Tulsa wealthy) and the other two groups have no resources to drive change. It is the upper middle class professionals in most cities that drive change. They are the ones that rehab inner city neighborhoods, discover trendy restaurants and buy new BMW's at 50k$ a whack.

I'm going to ask you to come up with some census numbers and show this is true before I bother to rebut.  Your evidence is barely anecdotal - you don't even give specific experience, let alone specific statistics.

Your contention that the middle class in Tulsa has been "seriously reduced" is laughable.  Ha.  I'm laughing at you.  Because I know you're wrong.  And don't show me a 3% decrease in the second quintile of income.  I want to see a "serious reduction."

Whoa, there.  Slow down the attack machine, boys and girls.  I quoted that language from someone else and said I thought it was an interesting theory that sounded plausible to me. AND I specifically said I would be interested to see some actual numbers or evidence, one way or the other.  Your statement that you "know" its wrong does not qualify as evidence.  ;-)

[snopes]

Originally posted by Oil Capital:

Yes, I am intentionally ignorant of the prior posts and would just as soon stay that way. And, yes I am choosing to ignore anything prior to this discussion, because Hometown and, it appears, Tulitlikeitis, were attempting to steer the discussion in a serious, respectful direction, making the prior posts irrelevant.

Why would anyone intentionally want to remain ignorant of anything, especially when it is relevant to this discussion? And since when does what YOU deem as a serious, respectful direction in this thread make prior posts irrelevant?

You attempt to come across as this great statesman Oil Capital, but allow me to let you in on a little secret. Statesmen know their history and it has a direct impact on the subject currently at hand.

You've also continuously derided any attempt at making comparisons between cities in Texas, more specifically Houston, by saying that no such comparison has been made. The comparison has been made, but your refusal to read prior posts and intentionally remain ignorant doesn't allow you to argue this point with any credibility. Again, remaining ignorant of the fact, and intentionally doing so I might add.

Also, when an argument as subjective as this is brought up, one of the methods we can use to measure the facts is to point out a source of reference. In this case, Houston, since Davaz has repeatedly inferred that Tulsa is inferior to Houston. When I have tried to point out the folly of his argument by providing statistics in prior posts, you respond with the same thing again and again about this thread not being a comparison between cities or regions but merely an honest, frank, discussion of Tulsa's woes.
That is NOT his intention, and if you would read and understand your history in this forum instead of remaining intentionally ignorant and trying to prove yourself to be the consumate statesman it would be obvious.

Davaz, tulitlikeitis, or any of his dozen or so previous incarnations are nothing but mudslingers trying to bash Tulsa and the rest of the state of Oklahoma with no real facts to back it up. And you are more than content to join hands with him and sing kumbaya during the whole process so that you can come across as this great statesman in the name of intelligent, considerate debate.

If you'll go back to an earlier post in this very thread, Davaz states that he has continually been p__ssing off the members of this forum and had no intention of quitting in the near future. Of course, to read this would violate your rules of remaining intentionally ignorant.

Apparently he's doing a very fine job of this, and it's proven by support from people just - like - you. While you come onto this thread and defend Davaz against others who are critical of this city but won't stand for Tulsa bashing, especially when it is not backed up by facts, Davaz is sitting back watching the resulting commotion and having one big laugh at our expense.

[Renaissance]

I'm pointing out that there Tulsa has not, in fact, lost large numbers of middle and upper-middle class residents.  There's just no evidence to support this.  We're not Flint, MI or Midland, TX.  OC, you make it sound like the economic heart of the city has been gutted when a cursory investigation shows otherwise.  Forgive the "massive attack," but you're making up lies about my hometown here and I care enough to point it out.

[Hometown]

kumbaya my lord, kumbaya.

Hey Snopes most of the posts here at TulsaNow are critical of the status quo in Tulsa.  If Tulsa was perfect there would be no need for discussion.

Now I personally was enjoying your angry retorts to Davaz.  I thought of you as sort of our own cheerleader.  But now I think your criticism of Oil Capital is completely misplaced.  He really has been trying to answer your points.

And you, meanwhile, have refused to answer his simple question.  What is your response to the present criticism of our fair city?

I could go on about Houston's problems.  I know Houston, like you, and agree Houston has its share of serious problems.  But I don't really care about Houston.  Houston will muddle along without our help.  We've got Tulsa to work on.

Floyd, you don't know me but I left town for 30 years.  The contrast between now and 30 years ago is quite stark.  30 years ago, downtown was bustling, bursting at the seams.  I can remember barely being able to snake through the traffic as we went to pick up my mom from her job at Standard Oil.  Standard Oil left shortly after that.  Tell me Floyd what do we have now that equals the oil company headquarters?

Now there's nothing wrong with having a good fuss but at the end of the day we should all join hands and say, we are all in the same boat and Tulsa needs our help.

I've said this before; I think Davaz could end up being one of Tulsa's most ardent boosters.  But if he doesn't, we should all be secure enough in ourselves to allow his dissent.

[snopes]

My criticism of Oil Capital is justified, in my opinion, by his own admission of ignoring the history of Davaz. As for answering his questions to me regarding criticism of the city, I may have certainly missed some pointed questions directed at me, but the thread is really long and I have not read every single word of every post. I have tried to respond to Oil Capital on several occasions but he (or she?) has said again and again that this is not a comparison between cities, and I do believe that it is. I've leveled my fair share of criticism at Tulsa, such as the high crime rate, the lack of jobs in many areas, and more. I can take constructive criticism all day long.

Where I draw the line is when someone resorts to the same old "Okie" addage about Oklahoma being backward and poverty being everywhere you turn.

Then, when some of us try and defend our city with statistics, we're assaulted by people such as Oil Capital that want to come across as a statesman  when all he is doing is feeding the devil we know as Davaz.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown


Floyd, you don't know me but I left town for 30 years.  The contrast between now and 30 years ago is quite stark.  30 years ago, downtown was bustling, bursting at the seams.  I can remember barely being able to snake through the traffic as we went to pick up my mom from her job at Standard Oil.  Standard Oil left shortly after that.  Tell me Floyd what do we have now that equals the oil company headquarters?

Not as much.  Williams, ONEOK, BOK, plus a lot of smaller, more dynamic companies.  Tulsa is not an oil boomtown anymore and never will be.

Look, I want to be realistic about our town.  I've lived in Chicago, Houston and Dallas, and so I have a reasonable perspective on what Tulsa lacks.  But I also have a reasonable perspective on what makes it unique and special.  Overblown hyperbole about the city's decline is a lot of worthless hot air and it gets on my nerves.

[Hometown]

Okay, I think I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Davaz, Thank you for your private message.  I want you to know that I find your brief remarks in the message reasonable but I also want to ask you again to not send me private messages.  I think you owe it to the people here to make your remarks in this public setting.  

Some people have gone out on a limb to give you a hearing.

I believe there is a dynamic here.  You make what you believe is a self evident criticism of Tulsa and some folks take offense and respond with anger and you respond to that with anger.  You resort to private messages and emails to find a sympathetic ear.  You don't understand why people don't just accept your criticism.  Honestly, I believe your feelings are hurt by the anger you engender.

After considering all the things I've heard here so far I would still contend you aren't telling us everything.  I believe Swake may be onto something.  I would guess there were some problems with your personal relationships mixed in with your disappointment with Tulsa.

Bottom line:  I think that your episode in Tulsa was a catalyst that helped you resolve some issues in your life.  Lucky Tulsa.

Finally, I do believe your criticism of Tulsa is, as Floyd said – overblown.  Not completely off the mark but overblown.  And a healthy response from a native Tulsan to the predicament you describe would be to join in civic efforts to help Tulsa.  Instead you think we are going to be impressed when you press your advantage and get into ostentatious displays of your material success.  Any Tulsan can tell you that is bad manners.  I don't mean to one up you but there are more important things than money.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

I'm pointing out that there Tulsa has not, in fact, lost large numbers of middle and upper-middle class residents.  There's just no evidence to support this.  We're not Flint, MI or Midland, TX.  OC, you make it sound like the economic heart of the city has been gutted when a cursory investigation shows otherwise.  Forgive the "massive attack," but you're making up lies about my hometown here and I care enough to point it out.

Try reading a little more carefully.  I did not make up anything.  I merely read someone else's theory and I thought it sounded reasonably possible.  Get a grip on yourself.  I never suggested the city was hollowed out or that ALL of the middle class was gone.  I think the more likely great loss is in the upper middle class/professional ranks.  And there again, I never suggested they were all gone or that Tulsa was desolate; only that a bunch had been lost and it may be a factor in the seeming inability to get good leadership in Tulsa.  

And by the way, there certainly is SOME evidence to at least raise a question. When you lose a fairly steady stream of profesional/high-skill level jobs that Tulsa has lost in the lost (e.g., Citgo, Parker Drilling, Sunoco, Wilcom/Level 3 etc.) it seems reasonable to ask the question.   The jobs have been leaving and I know at least some people have been following the jobs... THAT cursory examination suggest there might be some validity to the theory.  But I guess you know it is not possible.  So there you have it.  All is well in Tulsa.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

My criticism of Oil Capital is justified, in my opinion, by his own admission of ignoring the history of Davaz. As for answering his questions to me regarding criticism of the city, I may have certainly missed some pointed questions directed at me, but the thread is really long and I have not read every single word of every post. I have tried to respond to Oil Capital on several occasions but he (or she?) has said again and again that this is not a comparison between cities, and I do believe that it is. I've leveled my fair share of criticism at Tulsa, such as the high crime rate, the lack of jobs in many areas, and more. I can take constructive criticism all day long.

Where I draw the line is when someone resorts to the same old "Okie" addage about Oklahoma being backward and poverty being everywhere you turn.

Then, when some of us try and defend our city with statistics, we're assaulted by people such as Oil Capital that want to come across as a statesman  when all he is doing is feeding the devil we know as Davaz.

I do wish you boys and girls would read the posts before responding with such nonsense.  

I did NOT say anything about Oklahoma being backward or poverty being everywhere you turn.  On the contrary, I explicitly disclaimed the part of the subject post that suggested poverty was in your face everywhere you turn in Tulsa.  

Again, the subject is whether Tulsa has lost a bunch of upper-middle class/professional folks, and discussion on that point.  How is a comparison of cities relevant to that discussion?  Other cities have nothing to do with it.  Even cities that you hate have nothing to do with it.  Even cities to which a lot of those people have relocated have nothing to do with it.

(And btw, I'm not trying to be "statesman."  I'm JUST trying to have a discussion of a reasonable theory about one of Tulsa's problems.  That's all.  Don't be such a drama queen.)  ;-)

[Renaissance]

There are cheerleaders, naysayers, and everything in-between on this forum.  Being closer to the cheerleader end of the spectrum, I react strongly when a naysayer gets some momentum.  I understand when others do the opposite.  Obviously we're civil in other areas of discussion, so it's not a major problem.  This thread is good, though, for the point that although it may have problems, Tulsa is a fine small city where, at the moment, more things are looking up than looking down.

[USRufnex]

This is about as much fun as watching a train wreck... geez, Oil Capital, post after post and you do nothing but talk in circles.

Top 10 Oil Capital freakazoid quotes:
10.  "Sorry, but Tulitlikeitis actually did post a thoughtful, non-flaming thought about Tulsa's problems and your response just attacks Texas with a bunch of unrelated, cherry-picked statistics, rather than discussing Tul's theory.
Any thoughts or arguments about Tul's theory?"

---It's called BAIT, OC... bait... and you were stupid enough to take it; hook, line & sinker... unless you have some sort of hidden agenda we should know about?!?

9.  "And what are you in now, the 7th grade, with your childish and quite revealing "Tex-donkey" comments? Grow up and TRY to have a civilized conversation."

---Name calling?  You seem to be REALLY good at that too.  Pot to kettle... come in kettle...

8.  "And there you go again. I'll just let the ridiculous personal attacks slide."

---hmmm... that's mighty snarky of you. (See #9)

7.  "No, I have not read this entire thread. Because most of it is very tedious and childish. As I said in my post above, I was hoping that when Tulitlikeitis actually appeared to be attempting to engage in a mature, civil, non-trashing conversation he could get a like response. But that was not to be. I'm not talking about the previous pages of this thread. I'm talking about this page, today."

---This page, today, 12/6/06???  So you have no problem  taking everything out of context.  If you had even bothered to read posts from 12/5/06, you'd see this:  

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

You want an indicator ... I will give you one.

One of the smartest companies in the financial business is Fidelity Investments out of Boston. They are the world's largest fund company and have keen eye as to where they locate their investor centers. They locate them where the money is!

Dallas and Houston are typical of big cities -- they each have four investor centers.  But it is not all big cities. The following cities all have at least one.

Memphis
Minneapolis
Raleigh - Durham
Charlotte
Portland
Denver

Even little Palo Alto and Scottsdale have one.

Guess what about Tulsa and Oklahoma City? You guessed it -- not even one in the state.

Point made.

...and if you had bothered to read posts from 12/4/06, you'd see this craptastic gem

quote:Originally posted by tulitlikeitis

Where have you been living? On another planet? You must be blind.

If you have come from the Bay area as you said, the backwardness should be plain to see ... it sure was to me. If you don't see it, no amount of words from me would point it out. You see it everywhere ... cars people drive, their dress, food preferences ... everything.

Like I said before ... Tulsa is the land that time forgot.

By the way, leave characterizations of native this and native that to me. I may have been born there but I am surely not of there ... and there is a difference.

DAVAZ has a history.  And you kept crying about personal attacks even AFTER snopes tried to apologize to you for any perceived personal attacks.... this is when you start acting like a drama queen... oh, wait, did I say start

6.  Where have I "jumped around from issue to issue"?

---let me count the ways... you criticize someone for posting state stats and say "You are surely aware that NONE of those links or facts are in any way related to, or an argument opposing that to which you responded," and despite snopes posting stats comparing Tulsa & Houston, you go off like this:  "sorry, pal. My "argument" was only "fruitless" to those too biased to see. #1: Tul's statement was regarding Tulsa, not Houston or anywhere in Texas. #2: the stats provided were entirely about the states, not about the metro areas. Quite a different thing.  "No, I did not contradict myself. The posting talked only about the STATE statistics. It provided links to backup those STATE statistics and made no reference whatsoever to any metro statistics that may have incidentally been in those linked websites."  

"I have no need or reason to read the entire thread. Why can't we talk about the post that started all of this."

"And where is my contradiction? If you show it to me I'll own up to it."  "

And besides which, tul's post under discussion had nothing whatsoever to do with metro comparisons. It was entirely about Tulsa."

Speaking of going off on side issues...History in general matters to me. The history of this thread does NOT.

5.  "I also never complained there are no city-specific stats."

---OMG, can you not read your own posts???  

And you refuse to even read DAVAZ's posts from the previous day... what are you, Davaz's new sockpuppet???

4.  "I don't know if you've noticed this, but you are the only one talking about Houston. Do you have just a bit of an obsession?"

---I don't know if YOU'VE noticed that DAVAZ touts the glories of Houston almost as often as he bashes Tulsa.

3.  "Where did I say anything about "not liking the facts" you and Snopes posted? I honestly did not pay much attention to your and Snopes' comparison statistics, because, as I have repeatedly noted, they were not relevant to the subject of the discussion some of us were attempting to have."

Some of us?  Guess the rest of us will have to suffer through your hidden agenda, OC... more about that later...

2.  "No, I'm afraid you're missing the point. Whatever his past history (and I agree it does seem a bit odd for him to keep coming back under different disguises; but I also thinks it's quite amusing), your statement that "All he has ever done is spout the same rhetoric on how horrible a place Tulsa/OK is in comparison to Houston/Dallas/Austin/TX." is demonstrably and obviously false."

---Once again, any reasonable statement posted by DAVAZ is BAIT.  Your refusal to research the issue doesn't change this simple fact.  (See #10)

1.  "I do wish you boys and girls would read the posts before responding with such nonsense.

I did NOT say anything about Oklahoma being backward or poverty being everywhere you turn. On the contrary, I explicitly disclaimed the part of the subject post that suggested poverty was in your face everywhere you turn in Tulsa.

Again, the subject is whether Tulsa has lost a bunch of upper-middle class/professional folks, and discussion on that point."

---No, the nonsense is all yours and you're the drama queen, I'm afraid.  You refuse to read the posts/thread in their context.  You've been called on this, yet you continue to pretend the only time this thread had any meaning for you, is when YOU started reading and posting on it.  I say pretend because I don't believe you.  

You've decided to hijack this thread and in the process show yourself off as DAVAZ's OKC-loving soulmate.  Yes, our friend Oil Capital deceivingly uses his screen name as occasional camouflage for his not-so-well-hidden OKC-centric agenda.  Which is why OC doesn't want this debate to gravitate toward state statistics... it might lump Tulsa in with OKC.  And when/if somebody praises Tulsa; well that's when OC will insist on using state statistics to blur the issue.  

No, OC wants to narrowly focus the discussion on "Tul's post re: the loss of upper middle professional and middle class Tulsa."  Because it will give OC a chance to re-focus a thread that was originally about a psycho-sockpuppet-psychic-wannabe into a dishonest DAVAZ-style discussion of Tulsa's negatives.

jdb smelled one rat.  I smell another.      

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown



Floyd, you don't know me but I left town for 30 years.  The contrast between now and 30 years ago is quite stark.  30 years ago, downtown was bustling, bursting at the seams.  I can remember barely being able to snake through the traffic as we went to pick up my mom from her job at Standard Oil.  Standard Oil left shortly after that.  Tell me Floyd what do we have now that equals the oil company headquarters?

Okay, I'm not Floyd but I hadn't lived in Tulsa for years and years and think I have a reasonable idea of what Tulsa was like in 1976.  Talking about how oil companies have left Tulsa is seeing the glass half empty....

In 1976, Tulsa had bottle clubs... god forbid you ask for a long island tea... the Allie Beth Martin East Regional Library opened.  Garnett Rd was two laned... so was Mingo.  And the city flooded again... wouldn't be the last time.

Sure, downtown was a lot busier.  But the city has grown.  It's grown to the south and to the east... and well, there's Owasso... and Rogers County was the fastest growing county in Oklahoma last year.  Garnett Rd. has five lanes.  Many intersections that were just grassy fields have all sorts of retail/restaurants, etc.  Most have been constructed in the last 10 years.  Many in the last 5 years.  And from the looks of it, Tulsans do have disposable income.  I see upscale restaurants, pubs, etc... that were NOT there even 3 or 4 years ago.    

If you compare most cities to what they were like 30 years ago, you'd see the same issues.  Downtowns in many cities nearly died off.  But many in the rebounded in the 90s.  Tulsa's a little behind but the negativity here is over-rated.  Tulsa's just missing some civic investment that could help downtown turn the corner.  There are little pockets of activity at night but not a lot to connect those areas...

Tulsa has something the biggest cities just don't have.... affordable housing.  And tonight, I heard the tail end of a piece on KTUL about a buncha townhouses/homes being built around Utica that will sell for $750,000 to $2.5 million dollars a pop.  So evidently, somebody's making some big bucks here.  

I see lots of new building.  I don't see a hollowed-out downtown/city core.  I promise you I've seen much worse in other cities.

I was pleasantly surprised the last time I lived here-- only stayed about 10 mos... and that was the year the economy took it on the chin.  I never really liked Tulsa; I never really hated Tulsa, either.

But I CHOSE Tulsa.  I could have moved to many other cities.  I narrowed it down to a couple of other cities and Tulsa.  Tulsa didn't have boarded up buildings the way the other 2 cities had.  

I really wish Tulsans would stop selling their city short.  It'll never be "hip" capitol of the world... but it is a good value.
 

[AMP]

No boarded up buildings?  

Driven around town lately, try taking a drive along Admiral from downtown to 129th Street or Pine or Apache in the same area.

Even around 11th, 15th and 21st are several buildings that have been boarded up with Available Dot Com signs which have been up so long the paint has faded off.

Check with a few of the big commercial real estate brokers.  Many have entire shopping centers that have but 2 or 3 tenants all over Tulsa.    

Many of the vacant units have had all the copper wire and pipe, plus aluminum Air Conditioner units stipped and stolen out of them by thieves.

Go check out West Tulsa's industrial parks, or what is left of them.  Run out East and take a close look at the Rail Road Wheel plant North of Pine about 151st street that never opened, or the Albertson's Food Distribution Warehouse that failed due to the sluggish failing economy here.  Then come back past the closed Hale Hassel food distribution warehouse that has set empty for years.  There are several large buildings north of Pine between Sheridan and Memorial that sit empty.

Drive north on Lewis to where it ends and look to the West at that Industrial Park.  Drive through and check how many buildings sit idle there.  On your way back towards downtown take a close look along the side of HWY 75 at the large abandoned buildings near North of Downtown.

If you want lunch you could cruise out on Charles Page Blvd West of downtown Tulsa to the Knotty Pine Bar B Que, and see how many of those Industrial buildings are vacant and sitting idle.  

Thought there was going to be a loop that connected Hwy 75 to Charles Page, but guess we need to raise the sales tax once again to make that happen.

Not sure if anything occupies the old Git N Go corporate space.  

Then drive downtown, you will not have any problem locating a parking space there.

Get out of your car and enter a couple of dozen downtown buildings, the guard will kindly inform you that there are typically 3 or less floors occupied, if the building is even open.  

I led a "feet on the street" campaign for a year.  Every new hire was all the buzz about hitting Downtown Tulsa, "just look at all those buildings" they would shout out, the potential.  

It was a big shock to many when they walked into those buildings to discover the real story.

On you way back south, stop by the Oral Roberts City of Faith building and take the elevator up to see the many floors that have never even been finished.  They are just bare concrete.

Many things are not as they appear to be.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by snopes

My criticism of Oil Capital is justified, in my opinion, by his own admission of ignoring the history of Davaz. As for answering his questions to me regarding criticism of the city, I may have certainly missed some pointed questions directed at me, but the thread is really long and I have not read every single word of every post. I have tried to respond to Oil Capital on several occasions but he (or she?) has said again and again that this is not a comparison between cities, and I do believe that it is. I've leveled my fair share of criticism at Tulsa, such as the high crime rate, the lack of jobs in many areas, and more. I can take constructive criticism all day long.

Where I draw the line is when someone resorts to the same old "Okie" addage about Oklahoma being backward and poverty being everywhere you turn.

Then, when some of us try and defend our city with statistics, we're assaulted by people such as Oil Capital that want to come across as a statesman  when all he is doing is feeding the devil we know as Davaz.

I do wish you boys and girls would read the posts before responding with such nonsense.  

I did NOT say anything about Oklahoma being backward or poverty being everywhere you turn.  On the contrary, I explicitly disclaimed the part of the subject post that suggested poverty was in your face everywhere you turn in Tulsa.  

Again, the subject is whether Tulsa has lost a bunch of upper-middle class/professional folks, and discussion on that point.  How is a comparison of cities relevant to that discussion?  Other cities have nothing to do with it.  Even cities that you hate have nothing to do with it.  Even cities to which a lot of those people have relocated have nothing to do with it.

(And btw, I'm not trying to be "statesman."  I'm JUST trying to have a discussion of a reasonable theory about one of Tulsa's problems.  That's all.  Don't be such a drama queen.)  ;-)

No OC, the subject is not only that a bunch of upper-middle class/professional folks are leaving Tulsa. That is the only part of this discussion that YOU wish to recognize; all other parts of the discussion are off limits in your opinion because you want to steer the course of all discussion toward only those things that you recognize.

If you would take off your selective glasses, the subject also has to do with Tulsa being inferior to other cities because (in Davaz' own words) WE ARE A BACKWARD PEOPLE, OKIES, that cannot possibly understand our dilemma and it is indicated by the manner in which we dress, the cars we drive, and so on. You choose to ignore all of those posts from Davaz and because YOU think he suddenly saw the light and is here to offer a thoughtful, honest discourse on the economic, social, and other woes of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Any of Davaz' posts prior to your entry into this discussion are deemed by you to be irrelevant, because of course, you are the only person capable of understanding the true nature of Davaz and his thoughtful, constructive criticism of Tulsa.

Comparisons between cities are okay as long as Davaz does this, but when I or anyone else try to refute his assertions by bringing up statistics we're chastised by you for not participating in thoughtful, progressive discussion - therefore, in your opinion we are just mean spirited people that can't take criticism of our city and anything we say is irrelevant.

Oh, but of course, those posts by Davaz were prior to your intervention in this thread, and since nothing matters prior to your arrival I suppose all of that is null and void.

USRufnex made several very good points, and one among them was that Davaz' comments were BAIT, which you took hook, line, and sinker. You seem to be very selective about what you want to argue about, not wishing to look at the entire picture, or to put it bluntly, you prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of the facts. And to use a line of yours, "There you go again with the name-calling." I can assure you I am no drama queen.

And I did NOT say that YOU inferred Oklahoma was poverty stricken at every turn. That was a post by Davaz, but again your refusal to read any of his prior posts and therefore remain ignorant would prevent you from knowing that. It's kind of like pleading the 5th for you, this ignorance is bliss philosophy.

I have NO problem with criticism of Tulsa, I've questioned decisions by Tulsa leadership, made sarcastic remarks about the lack of jobs in certain areas, and have participated in many discussion in areas where Tulsa is lacking. My point is, in regards to THIS topic, is that Tulsa is NOT backward, is NOT some backwater cesspool that doesn't know its arse from a hole in the ground, it is a fine city that has problems just like any other city. Constructive criticism is fine, but when someone comes on to this board and 99.8 percent of the comments they spew are nothing but slanderous attempts to make Tulsa, and all of Oklahoma out to be a bunch of toothless hillbillies, I take exception to that. I don't choose to remain ignorant, and I certainly won't give Davaz or anyone who defends him a pass on such commentary.