Judges should be appointed - not elected

[snopes]

I think the duties should be rotated amongst registered voters, similar to jury duty.

[rwarn17588]

I agree that judges should be appointed.

I don't want judges looking over their backs because they did something that might be unpopular, like following the law and Constitution.

That said, I think Madame X is being less than upfront.

[pmcalk]

I agree that judges should be appointed, with limited terms, subject to removal.  Since they cannot discuss the issues they will be deciding, when two judges run against eachother, all they can do is discuss character, which is likely to dissolve into petty name calling and vicious rumors.  Obviously, politicians do that too, but those of us who so desire can ultimately vote for someone based upon what they stand for, what they hope to accomplish.  We can only vote for judges based on vague endorsements, non-specific ads, and generic character references.  Its nothing but a popularity contest among lawyers.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

ley's lay off of madame x.

She didn't realize we are all sharks, looking for our next meal.

I agree to a certain point. On the other hand, when someone complains about personal attacks and, in the very next sentence tells someone that they'd make a good Nazi, they kind give up their status as an innocent victim.

[Conan71]

I dunno, I just finished reading "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham, a non-fiction account of how two innocent men from Ada were rail-roaded by everyone from the local cops, to the OSBI, to the prosecutor, to the trial judge and the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals.

Two men lost twelve years of their lives in part due to the incompetence of the trial judge.

I remembered hearing about the case when the two men were released from prison back in '99.  The details of the way the state handled the case were shocking to say the least.  He also mentioned in the book two more men who had the same results with the Ada justice system.  

Fortunately, that judge was voted out in 1990.  I think it's good for the people for whom the judge is charged with protecting their liberties and the rest of the public's safety interests do have accountability via elections.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I dunno, I just finished reading "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham, a non-fiction account of how two innocent men from Ada were rail-roaded by everyone from the local cops, to the OSBI, to the prosecutor, to the trial judge and the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals.

Two men lost twelve years of their lives in part due to the incompetence of the trial judge.

I remembered hearing about the case when the two men were released from prison back in '99.  The details of the way the state handled the case were shocking to say the least.  He also mentioned in the book two more men who had the same results with the Ada justice system.  

Fortunately, that judge was voted out in 1990.  I think it's good for the people for whom the judge is charged with protecting their liberties and the rest of the public's safety interests do have accountability via elections.

Not only that Conan, but one of the guys, if I recall even died of liver cancer right after he won a settlement against the city of Ada. Presumably because he drank very heavily due to the continued levels of stress in his life ruined by corruption. The people who conspire to send people to prison like this should themselves go to jail for a very, very long time.

[Conan71]

I highly recommend this book.  A word of caution though: it's pretty depressing.  I don't see how anyone could read it and not be changed by the story, I certainly was.  I have a better appreciation of why we do have the appeals systems in place that we do.  I've never been a death penalty opponent, I've just never felt the death penalty is any sort of deterrent- rising homicide rates tend to bear that out.

I've always been a big Grisham fan through movie adaptations of his work and have read all his books now except for "Skipping Christmas" in the last year.

Ron Williamson, the man you are speaking of, had severe mental problems (at various times diagnosed as bi-polar and/or schizophrenic) which went un-treated at various times during his incarceration.  

The trial judge, prosecutor, and his own court-appointed defense attorney neglected to recognize his mental illness during his trial.  As well, the judge refused to hear a defense motion regarding exculpatory evidence until after the trial.  The prosecution purposely withheld a taped confession from another suspect from the defense.  The judge in this case also refused to allow the defense to have their own forensic experts, since it would have to come from public funds.

I usually wait for a book to come out in paperback, but I've been anxious to read this ever since I'd heard Grisham was tackling this project.  Borders has the book 30% off in hard cover.

On the flip side, I felt like Judge Wall was being too lenient and allowing criminals back on the street far too soon.  Voters had the opportunity to remove her from office.  If her successor sides too much with prosecutors as Richard O'Carroll believes she will, we will have the opportunity to remove her from office as well.

[rwarn17588]

I have held a dim view of the death penalty ever since a group of diligent law students found that nearly a dozen death-row inmates in my native Illinois were wrongly convicted.

That was more than 10 percent of the inmates on death row. That's horrific.

That largely led then-Gov. George Ryan to commute all the death sentences in the state right before he left office. Ryan was a crook, and his conviction on racketeering a few months ago proves it. But that was one thing he did right.

[snopes]

I think I'll buy that book Conan. I have alot of close ties to Ada (relatives there, spent many holidays there) and appreciate your recommendation.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I have held a dim view of the death penalty ever since a group of diligent law students found that nearly a dozen death-row inmates in my native Illinois were wrongly convicted.

That was more than 10 percent of the inmates on death row. That's horrific.

That largely led then-Gov. George Ryan to commute all the death sentences in the state right before he left office. Ryan was a crook, and his conviction on racketeering a few months ago proves it. But that was one thing he did right.

I'm amazed that Illinois didn't have more people on death row, based on their population vs. Oklahoma.

A friend of mine lives just outside St. Louis on the Ill. side.  He was outraged when Ryan did that, but it's not like he set them free.  I'd far rather be put down then to face 40 or 50 years behind bars.  At least that guaranteed that Ill. wouldn't kill any wrongly convicted people.

As I said, I'm not so much an opponent of capital punishment as I just don't really see the need for or point of it.  It's definitely not the deterrent it's claimed to be.  It's Old Testament "eye for an eye" stuff.  Life without parole is a far worse sentence than death, IMO.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by snopes

I think I'll buy that book Conan. I have alot of close ties to Ada (relatives there, spent many holidays there) and appreciate your recommendation.

You will likely recognize quite a few names then.  There are plenty of names of criminals and law men from the headlines over the years that anyone who has read the TW or Daily Oklahoman has heard of at one point or another.  I think you might also appreciate Grisham's sardonic wit at many turning points in the story.

[rwarn17588]

<Conan wrote:

Life without parole is a far worse sentence than death, IMO.

<end clip>

It's also less expensive. Once you add in all the necessary appeals and legal fees that come with it, it's cheaper to send a con to the penitentiary for the rest of his life than go through all the stuff that comes with a death-penalty case.

Funny how you mention your friend from near St. Louis. I also lived near St. Louis at the time Ryan commuted the death sentences. I was mad at Ryan because I thought he did it to temper all his legal troubles at the time.

But as more information came out and as more time passed, I think Ryan did it because he was genuinely horrified with all the errors in the state's death penalty system and sought to do the right thing. I now think his action was proper.

Too bad his moral compass didn't work with corruption, as well.

[snopes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by snopes

I think I'll buy that book Conan. I have alot of close ties to Ada (relatives there, spent many holidays there) and appreciate your recommendation.

You will likely recognize quite a few names then.  There are plenty of names of criminals and law men from the headlines over the years that anyone who has read the TW or Daily Oklahoman has heard of at one point or another.  I think you might also appreciate Grisham's sardonic wit at many turning points in the story.

I'm actually kind of pumped about reading it. I plan to get it tonight and read it over the Thanksgiving holiday. A good time to read, when your belly is so full of turkey that you can hardly do anything else <BURP>.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

<Conan wrote:

Life without parole is a far worse sentence than death, IMO.

<end clip>

It's also less expensive. Once you add in all the necessary appeals and legal fees that come with it, it's cheaper to send a con to the penitentiary for the rest of his life than go through all the stuff that comes with a death-penalty case.

Funny how you mention your friend from near St. Louis. I also lived near St. Louis at the time Ryan commuted the death sentences. I was mad at Ryan because I thought he did it to temper all his legal troubles at the time.

But as more information came out and as more time passed, I think Ryan did it because he was genuinely horrified with all the errors in the state's death penalty system and sought to do the right thing. I now think his action was proper.

Too bad his moral compass didn't work with corruption, as well.

Jim lives up in Belleville.  

The state has to provide appeals lawyers for death row inmates only, so far as I know.  Anyone else in the prison population, once convicted, has to draft their own briefs, hire a lawyer with their own money, or find a lawyer who believes enough in their case they will take it pro bono.  I might be wrong on that point, but I believe that's the case.

[snopes]

Conan, I'm reading The Innocent Man by Grisham. An excellent read and I'm about halfway through the book. The corruption of the legal system in Ada is not only mind-boggling, but the ineptness of some of the lawyers for the defense as well. My opinion thus far is that I hope that Peterson (the DA) gets his a__S handed to him on a silver platter by the attention this book should bring. I can't believe that he is still in office after all of this. I'm actually considering writing him a letter condemning his sorry butt and the rest of the people involved. Like I said, I have relatives in Ada and some of them actually know this clown. I called one of them Wednesday night and they said he is really worried about the attention this book will bring.

These are comments from other members of the congregation at the church he attends. CHURCH! What does he go there for? To wash the filth off after a week of God knows what?

The detectives and DA down there oughta go to prison for about 20 years and see how the shoe fits on the other foot.

I absolutely HATE corruption at any level and the crap that took place down there literally takes the cake.