DUDE... where's my soccer team?

[USRufnex]

From MLSnet.com...

quote:Garber updated the media on potential expansion candidates, listing Atlanta, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Rochester, San Diego, San Jose, St. Louis and Seattle as new markets the league could move into and New York as the potential home of a second MLS team. The league hopes to expand in 2008 but could wait until 2009 if it is not willing to launch a team without a soccer-specific stadium.

So here we are, one year removed from a possible Major League Soccer team in Tulsa, and the city has once again fallen off MLS's radar screen.  Despite a successful exhibition game and a 2003 feasability study that helped attract Global Development Partners to Tulsa's "East End," there's still no pro team here.  Despite the fact that around 5,000 Tulsans gave credit card and checking info for season tickets, still no team...

And THIS thread still has more hits than any other TulsaNow forum thread...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2680

The Tulsa Now organization did the city and citizens of Tulsa a dis-service by pro-actively opposing what is turning out to be a completely reasonable plan for a stadium-anchored development in the East Village... now called the "East End."  It's been obvious for years now that the "superblock" there was going to be something; whether that something turned out to be the arena, a baseball stadium, or a soccer-centric stadium with a 20k capacity that could eventually be used for the approx. 17,000-plus high school football fans that saw the Jenks-Union game...

Tulsa Now decided to oppose ANY stadium at that superblock location in favor of using tax increment financing for condos/retail only... special tax breaks that would be enjoyed primarily by residents of those luxury condos.

Since moving back to Tulsa, the MOST excitement I've seen in reaction to the minor league ballpark for the "East End" is from people on this forum... everybody else I've talked to so far just shrug their shoulders...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4782

All this, while Bing Thom harvests millions and millions of dollars to come up with his nature-altering plans for 3 man-made islands worthy of the "tax vampire" moniker.  

The Tulsa Roughnecks were Oklahoma's ONLY major league team up until the NBA Hornets stay in Oklahoma City (unless you count the one-year-and-done USFL Oklahoma Outlaws).  The Roughnecks were a well-supported success in Tulsa and outlived the NASL and even won the league's final Soccer Bowl in 1983, outdrawing/outlasting teams in Dallas, Denver, Atlanta, Philly, Boston, Houston, Memphis, Calgary, Edmonton, Jacksonville, Rochester, etc, etc... the Roughnecks were the NASL's version of the Green Bay Packers... the team was such a fixture in the community that over 12,000 Tulsans donated money to help the team make payroll after the '83 season.  I can't think of any other city that has done that for a mere soccer team.

The Roughnecks made a lasting positive contribution to Tulsa.  It is no accident that TU's soccer team is the highest profile college team in the state... it is no accident that the high school state soccer champs in both boys & girls soccer last year were Cascia Hall, Bishop Kelley and Jenks, respectively... a clean sweep for Tulsa.  It is no accident Tulsa has dominant club teams that compete on the national level... and those old Charlie Mitchell's Restaurant & Pubs weren't bad either...

The scorer of the lone goal for the New England Revolution in today's 2-1 loss to Houston at MLS Cup in Frisco, Texas was Taylor Twellman........ his dad was on the roster for the 1982 Tulsa Roughnecks, playing outdoors at Skelly and indoors at the Expo Square Pavillion.....

Quotes from Tulsa's local ownership group in the 1981 & 1982 Tulsa Roughnecks' media guides:  
"Tulsa has been good to us as independent businessmen and this is our way of contributing to the success of the city.  Hoping to add to the continued growth and vitality of Tulsa and its residents."

"The Tulsa Roughnecks are profoundly committed to the future of Tulsa's youth and pledge their efforts and support to that end.  To the 300,000-plus Roughneck fans who flocked to Skelly Stadium last year, we offer sincere appreciation for your loyalty, support and avid enthusiasm."

When the four purchased the Roughnecks in October of 1980, they announced that their mutual committment was to assure that Tulsa would retain its only major league sports franchise and their combined feelings on that subject remain unaltered.  "There is no doubt that professional soccer will succeed in this country and when the comes that the sport takes its destined place it is our singular goal that the Tulsa Roughnecks will be there."

In the 80s, Tulsa GM Noel Lemon claims to have had casual discussions with Oral Roberts Univ. on a possible 30,000 seat home for the Roughnecks.  In the 90s, Tulsa was only a grass field at Skelly away from getting a charter team in MLS... another downtown stadium was included in the 1997 failed Tulsa Project... Tulsa soccer fans got a bait-and-switch in June 2003 when the stadium was nixed in favor of the arena... and soccer fans have yet another bait-and-switch on our hands when the group that was supposed to bring MLS and a tif-financed stadium to downtown decided last spring to "gift" the Drillers with a new 8,000 seat ballpark...

Meanwhile, on the other side of the Turner Turnpike in Edmond; built with lots of state tax dollars, is this:


Wantland Stadium at UCO has pro-level soccer field dimensions, and the seating capacity can be expanded to MLS specs if needed... while a comparable facility for at OSU-Tulsa remains  only a pipedream...

I figure all of us who were kids back in the day when the REAL Tulsa Roughnecks were playing are all in our 30s and 40s now... and we ain't gettin' any younger!... so I sit after watching this year's MLS Cup on ABC from Frisco, Texas wondering... will there be a day when we can all go see the new Tulsa Roughnecks or an MLS All Star game or a USA nat'l team game at Winnercomm Park in T-town???  

Soccer in Tulsa isn't just a tradition... it's a legacy.  And that pro-soccer legacy needs to be passed on to future generations of Tulsans... preferably sometime before former Roughnecks players Victor Moreland and Charlie Mitchell get old and start talkin' funny...

--end of rant--

[RecycleMichael]

The Tulsa Now organization did the city and citizens of Tulsa a dis-service by pro-actively opposing what is turning out to be a completely reasonable plan for a stadium-anchored development in the East Village... now called the "East End." It's been obvious for years now that the "superblock" there was going to be something; whether that something turned out to be the arena, a baseball stadium, or a soccer-centric stadium with a 20k capacity that could eventually be used for the approx. 17,000-plus high school football fans that saw the Jenks-Union game...

Tulsa Now decided to oppose ANY stadium at that superblock location in favor of using tax increment financing for condos/retail only... special tax breaks that would be enjoyed primarily by residents of those luxury condos.

I don't remember TulsaNow opposing this.

Are you sure there wasn't just a handful of people who argued with you on a thread?

Is that all it takes to get off the MSL radar?

That must be some sensitive equipment.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael
I don't remember TulsaNow opposing this.

Are you sure there wasn't just a handful of people who argued with you on a thread?

Is that all it takes to get off the MSL radar?

That must be some sensitive equipment.

Nope... it was the Tulsa Now organization... and not just a few forum posties... unless "Admin" means something else...

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2680

"In the mood to help fund a Downtown Soccer Stadium?"

quote:Out of state developers are working hard to place a 'Major-League Soccer' ('MLS') stadium in Downtown Tulsa's East Village, the 115-acre, Downtown tract within 7th St., I244, Detroit and Highway 75. The developer also plans a 40-acre development of homes and stores nearby. Bring on the homes and stores, says TulsaNow, a grass-roots, citizens' group. But locate the soccer stadium in North Tulsa as part of a regional development strategy.

The Downtown project is supported by Mayor LaFortune. Public funds are likely to be required to leverage it. A close associate of the Mayor is representing the developer, Global Development Partners, and would presumably stand to make a tidy profit if the project went through. 'Star Bonds' – a sales-tax-driven device that does not require a popular vote on the matter – are apparently also under consideration.

That "close associate of the Mayor" (LaFortune) appears to be Adwon Properties?  
http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/documents/060830TulsaPressRelease_000.pdf

Any of this ring a bell, michael???

[RecycleMichael]

I remember the thread well.

There was great discussion and you held your own respectfully against a whole squad of posters.

I learned a lot from the entire conversation and you convinced me that a soccer stadium would work. I still prefer a multi-purpose stadium, but you say that won't fit MLS standards.

I still question how seriously Tulsa was considered.

TulsaNow is much more than just some posters. It is actually a board that also offers this forum, but I don't remember any board vote to oppose or support a soccer stadium.

It was just a thread on a forum, not formal opposition.

[USRufnex]

Honestly, RM... the "In the Mood to build a downtown soccer stadium" was the ONLY thread in the Discussion forum ever to have a "STICKY" attached to it for weeks and weeks...

This was NOT a coincidence... if you'd like to claim that "Admin" was some incarnation of Davaz, go ahead and correct me on this.

But I read this forum and the actual Tulsa Now site for months and months looking for pertinent info before this "soccer stadium" thread made its debut...

This was NOT just a thread on a forum... NO OTHER THREAD has ever been treated like this... before or since... and its link from the general Tulsa Now website stayed at the top of their page for months until sometime in the spring...

I am not saying Tulsa Now's direct opposition to Global Development's MLS plans was the only factor that led Tulsa's bid going down... but I still to this day believe it was a contributing factor...

The soccer stadium would have been multi-use... for everything other than baseball... it would fit larger high school football crowds.  Unlike the 8,000 seat capacity/design for a new Driller Park.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I still question how seriously Tulsa was considered.

Serious as a heart attack... and it's been that way for years...

Here's a recent timeline (I have stuff dating all the way back to 1992 but will spare ya' that): []

From Tulsa World, April 23rd 2003. By Glen Hibdon:
All quotes attributed to Mark Abbott, COO of MLS and current MLS commissioner Don Garber:

quote:"There will be two expansion franchises announced by the end of the year to play in the 2005 season, and Tulsa and Oklahoma City will not both receive one. Garber said it's possible, although unlikely, that both could be shut out."

"Oklahoma has a massive youth soccer market and Tulsa has a tremendous history with the Roughnecks," Garber said. "Joe-Max Moore has played for the U.S. national team and in our league and Tulsa is a market that really seems to get passionate about local offerings. We had 14,000 fans and 3,500 season ticket commitments at the exhibition game on April 5 and that speaks well.

"We have been successful when we're one of the big games in town and Tulsa seems to be a community that would embrace a team and make it special. Oklahoma City is the same way. I believe the timing at some point will be there. The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us."

MLS: Cash, stadium needed for a Tulsa MLS team
MIKE BROWN World Sports Writer
03/26/2005

quote:... (TU soccer coach) McIntosh said Tulsa needs investors ready to contribute lots of cash, and a new venue.

"We'd have a team right now if we had the stadium and an ownership group," McIntosh said. "The MLS would love to have a team in Tulsa, but we don't have the proper facility here in town, and an ownership group really hasn't stepped forward."

(Kansas City)Wizards general manager Curt Johnson concurs. "The marketplace is a good one. It's ready, assuming an appropriate facility and owner can be found," Johnson said. "We had a tremendous crowd when we played there a couple of years ago. Tulsa certainly can be a good marketplace for professional soccer, I believe in that."

Guess what happens next...

"City may net soccer team" - Tulsa World 11/18/05

quote:"The Tulsa World has learned that a national sports agency that owns a franchise is interested in bringing a team to Tulsa."

MLS was (and probably still is) interested in Tulsa... $15 million would get a team... $2 million a year pays the players... sigh... but the deep pockets in Tulsa are more interested in Bing Thom and getting $600 million in sales taxes to build some artificial islands... and Adwon Properties is interested in making money -- an 8,000 seat minor league ballpark is cheaper to build than a 20,000 seat football/soccer stadium...

[Breadburner]

Soccer fun to play....Boring as hell to watch....All the diving and rolling around that occurs today has cheapened the sport....A Soccer only stadium = bad idea.....

[AVERAGE JOE]

I see Ruf is still making posts about 6 miles long. [}:)]

The TulsaNow organization and the TulsaNow forum are two different things. To my knowledge, the organization took no official position on the matter (I'm not a member, so I don't know for a fact). Just because one of the site admins decided to argue with you doesn't make it the official position of the organization. That is reality, which I'm certain you will choose to ignore (and reply with a post longer than my arm with about 15 links and half the text bolded).

The fact Tulsa fell off the MLS map has nothing to do with this forum. It has everything to do with our city's viability as a market when competing with Dallas and Chicago and Washington DC and Los Angeles.

It would be nice for us to land a team, but no need for the sour grapes and definitely no need to lash out at the forum.

[USRufnex]

Okay, smarty and self annointed defender of this forum... the "Admin" post specifically references TulsaNow... let me quote this sentence...

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2680

quote:"Bring on the homes and stores, says TulsaNow, a grass-roots citizens' group.  But locate the soccer stadium in North Tulsa as part of a regional development strategy."

What would any reasonable person think after reading THAT?  Honestly.  It sounds/looks official to me.  And the full text of that post appears specifically to be the opinion of the TulsaNow organization, not the forum or just the administrator.

The site administrator never argued with me... that seems to be your self-appointed  job, AJ...

We'll never agree... which is why I've put you on "ignore" in the past and will be surprised if I don't end up having to do it again.

And I'm sorry, you and the little cliques that sometimes surface in this forum can't have it both ways.  You can't crow about how seriously the local media takes this forum and call it "the new media, TulsaNow" and then turn around and pretend it had no effect... all I know is that the TulsaNow main site had that opposition article FRONT & CENTER on the website for weeks and weeks...

And when I first posted the thread on the East End using the title, "In the mood to fund a Downtown Baseball Stadium," my thread was RE-TITLED and subsequently MOVED.  

The very same organization that allowed a thread/article to be posted in it's name claiming staunch opposition to a stadium including this:

quote:"Wait a minute: isn't the developer proposing a stadium and an urban neighborhood into the East Village? Can't we squeeze both in?

In a word: No, - not without removing a number of other people's buildings that are economically productive and part of Downtown's character. The 20 acres apparently required for the stadium, seating, concessions (and probably) structured parking will effectively remove the chance to deliver the scale necessary to provide a true sense of neighborhood. It denies the opportunity for other, more productive uses on those 20 acres. And the proposed stadium location, apparently between 4th and 7th St., east of Elgin, would effectively cut off the 6th St. neighborhood from Downtown."

And further down the page, this...

quote:TulsaNow welcomes reasoned responses to any and all of the above points – especially from the City's Administration. The civic benefits certainly seem meager. That the project smacks of cronyism does not inspire us either. We ask the Administration to think deeply before approaching voters to pay for a soccer stadium Downtown.

So, in late August, when an almost identical plan using the exact same out-of-state developers includes a baseball stadium, TulsaNow is strangely silent on the matter???

Anybody else think this is a bit hypocritical?
Or at least just a little odd?

[AVERAGE JOE]

I argue with you because it's fun. Simple as that.

We disagree on only one aspect of the entire the soccer franchise and stadium thing -- the location of the stadium. That's it. That's all we've ever disagreed about. We've chewed up a ton of bandwidth over it, but that's all it boils down to.

[okiebybirth]

I think USRufnex makes a very valid point... I was under the assumption that TulsaNow was against a soccer stadium because that was the subject of the main page: "In the mood to fund a downtown soccer stadium"...  If it wasn't the position of the TulsaNow board, it was in poor judgement by one person to post it on the main page without discussion from the board.

But I do disagree that it had any effect on Tulsa getting a team.  When Global Development's deal for DC United fell through, I think it soured them on any deal on running a soccer club.

My question is:  Why isn't Winnercomm pursuing a deal to get a team to Tulsa?  They are entrenched in the MLS production side and they would seem to be a natural for being a backer of a Tulsa team.  If someone had produced the entry fee, Tulsa would have a team and Global Development probably would have built the soccer stadium.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

I argue with you because it's fun. Simple as that.

We disagree on only one aspect of the entire the soccer franchise and stadium thing -- the location of the stadium. That's it. That's all we've ever disagreed about. We've chewed up a ton of bandwidth over it, but that's all it boils down to.

"Jane, you ignorant, misguided slut! Once again, you missed the point entirely."

Oh, yeah... if that's all we disagreed on, then I can just put you in the "with friends like these, who needs enemies" camp.

I'll have to correct myself after claiming the TulsaNow website opposition statement was posted for "weeks and weeks" when it was, in effect, posted/stickied only until the soccer stadium portion of the proposal died--presumably sometime in Jan/Feb 2006... here's the actual timeline...

11/11/2005-- Potential Tulsa investors surface at MLS Cup 2005 in Frisco, TX... http://web.mlsnet.com/news/mls_events_news.jsp?ymd=20051111&content_id=48024&vkey=mlscup2005&fext=.jsp

quote:Representatives of the proposed Toronto club are in the Dallas area this weekend for MLS Cup 2005, as are potential investors in five other cities: Philadelphia, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Atlanta and Tulsa, Okla. Garber noted that if a second 2007 expansion city is not decided on, the league could employ an unbalanced schedule with just 13 teams.
---------------------------------------------
"We need local ownership, we need a stadium plan, and we need a committed fan base."

11/18/2005-- Front page news... "The Tulsa World has learned that a national sports agency that owns a franchise is interested in bringing a team to Tulsa."

11/20/2005-- Again, front page news in the Tulsa World... "An unnamed group's proposal to include a medium-size soccer stadium in the latest plans for downtown Tulsa's East Village district, though, fits a trend for sports stadiums, especially those used primarily by Major League Soccer teams."

12/9/2005-- An opinion opposing the "un-named group's proposal" appears to represent the views of TulsaNow and is posted on their website... the article then starts naming names... "A close associate of the Mayor is representing the developer, Global Development Partners, and would presumably stand to make a tidy profit if the project went through." http://www.tulsanow.org/blog/2005_12_01_archive.asp
That same day, this opinion is posted on the TulsaNow Discussion Forum as a sticky... and within 2 hours, Average Joe chimes in, comparing the proposed 20k seat football/soccer stadium to "The Rose Bowl in Pasadena" and making the fraudulent claim that baseball parks are "by their very design multi-use."  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2680

1/13/2006-- after over a month at front-and-center as the most recent article penned by the author TulsaNow on the organization's website, the "In the mood to build a soccer stadium" opinion is displaced by an announcement of the Annual Meeting for Tulsa Now slated for 1/18.

1/18/2006-- Global Development Partners withdraws from its agreement to buy MLS's DC United... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/17/AR2006011701016.html

2/21/2006-- At the TulsaNow Mayoral Forum, according to carltonplace, Mayor LaFortune... "when asked if he could 'magically' add anything to downtown Tulsa, the mayor responded that he would like an east village with a "baseball stadium", not a soccer stadium."  

3/2/2006-- Following a request by Average Joe, the "Downtown Soccer Stadium" thread in the discussion forum is "unstickied."

5/22/2006-- "Failed D.C. United deal lands partners in court"... a Washington Business Journal article on a breach of contract lawsuit... http://washington.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2006/05/15/daily64.html

quote:It's unclear exactly why the agreement between Global Development Partners and D.C. United owner Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG) fell through, although McAteer claims in his suit that Major League Soccer would not approve "ownership of a franchise by an entity involving" Lauterbach, Kissler and Al-Sadi.

D.C. United President Kevin Payne would not comment on that claim. A Major League Soccer spokesman did not return a call for comment.

What is clear is that Global Development had agreed to buy the team from AEG for a reported $25 million last July. That agreement fell through over the winter.

Now, does any of this rise to the conspiracy  level of an Oliver Stone movie?  I'm afraid the only people who know the true answer to that question are Tulsa's Power Brokers, who are most likely this very minute dancing naked around a bonfire, making s'mores and singing kum-bah-yah down by the river [/sarcasm]... knowing full-well that nobody who's signed a confidentiality agreement will be able to spill the beans on what actually happened...

Next week:  USRufnex and his trusty dog Scooby find the remains of Jimmy Hoffa at an   old abandoned Nordam warehouse...

[jdb]

"...this very minute dancing naked around a..." - USRufnex


Wrong-O!

That would be semi-naked: but otherwise, I'm not saying a word. jdb

[RecycleMichael]

Sorry it took so long to respond...it takes a little while to wash off all the marshmallows and graham cracker crumbs. It was also important to make sure the fire was completely out...Smokey the Bear was right...

I asked around and found out who signed on as administrator then started a thread. It was a board member who does not like the idea and admitted they should have used their real screen name. The title "administrator" has been used by a small number of people. The screen name "moderator" is also used by a handle of people on this forum.

I mentioned it to other board members that some posters had thought that the TulsaNow board was against a downtown soccer stadium. The board leadership clearly said that a policy had never been discussed and they had no formal opinion for or against a downtown soccer stadium.

I apologize on behalf of the TulsaNow board for any confusion.

[iviyst]

My uncle used to play for the Roughnecks back in the day!