TCC Downtown campus infill project

[cannon_fodder]

I used to work right next door to there, TCC is one of the best things to happen to downtown.  It brings people to the area from sunrise and well into the evening.  They take care of their property and provide places for people to gather on the corners.  The massive amounts of surface parking are the only downside...

Now, to make it look more like the rendering all we need to do is get some trees in the area, turn the cross streets into boulevards, remove several lanes of traffic, take out the stop lights, and insert some cool streetlights.  

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Great point! [:O] Hey Bing!  Over here!  We found some space!  Oh, and there's some over there too!  And over there!  

TCC's vast parking lots are also totally lost tax revenue.  I was looking at downtown land records recently, and if I understand correctly, TCC pays $100/year taxes per city block of surface parking.  (Same for many other parking lots downtown, including church-owned and Tulsa Parking Authority lots.)  Imagine if Tulsa had preserved it's downtown buildings so that they could be utilized...we'd have hundreds of thousands of dollars more tax revenue each year.

Actually, they pay nothing. The $100 you saw is a nominal value that the assessor assigns to every parcel owned by a tax-exempt organization, like a church or government agency.

TCC does bring a lot of people into downtown, but, like the downtown churches, it doesn't create much downtown vitality. A question worth pondering: Given the thousands of people who come and go from that campus every day, why haven't any nearby retail businesses emerged to cater to that market? Find the answer to that, and you may discover what is holding downtown back.

[cannon_fodder]

Well Michael, I think its a heard mentality. Why is every chain restaurant on 71st street?  Because that's where all the others are.

Another contributing reason is that TCC has some retail inside that serves the basic needs of the students.  Books, notepads, pens, snacks... its all there.  When they get done with class, they head for the hills because there is no viable alternative in that area.

So I'm not sure how to break that cycle and get business back in downtown (though it seem the East End, Blue Dome and Brady are starting to do so), but certainly something needs to be done.  My wife and I looked at houses between riverside and downtown and concluded that we would lose out on the feeling of urban living.  In my current location at 28th and Harvard I have a couple bars, several convenience stores/pharmacies, a liqueur store, a dozen or so restaurants, barbers, dentists, office supplies, pet supplies and damn near everything else I need within easy walking distance (10 blocks or so).  I'd lose that moving downtown, strange huh?

So enlighten us - what's holding us back downtown (other than a lack of people which is being held back by the lack of amenities which is being held back by no people)?

[sgrizzle]

Kinda like the adage "you have to have money to make money" you have to have downtown vitality to get downtown vitality. Groups like Global and Kanbar know this and keep wanting the other guy to make the first move because the first guy into this particular pool will likely operate in the red for awhile.

[TheArtist]

We are just going to have to keep hoping for more "trail blazers" and pioneer types to come in and do their thing.  Hopefully some day their faith and effort will pay off when enough critical mass finally happens to start making downtown come alive.  

I noticed the Kanbar properties were all listed in the Sunday TW in a full page advert.  I guess he isn't going to do anything with them other than sell or lease them. Basically, no real change from before other than one person having them versus several different people.

I think its apparent that downtown has to become a neighborhood.  A mix of businesses, living, services, activities, etc.  The old notion of a downtown with buildings mainly used for offices just isn't going to cut it.  That experiment failed.

I think one thing the city can do is to help downtown feel more like a place to live.  

Centennial park will help. Streetscaping, proper lighting and trees will help. Making sure new garages they build have space for ground level retail will help. There is not a lot the city can do, but what they can do, will hopefully have concern towards making downtown look and feel like a place where a person would consider living, not just working.

[Rico]

Just for the heck of it I had a look "Globally" at what some Countries are calling "mixed-use" development.....

This is for those that like things that are over the top...

 "Mixed Use Development"

This groups homepage is http://www.atkinsdesign.com

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

Just for the heck of it I had a look "Globally" at what some Countries are calling "mixed-use" development.....

This is for those that like things that are over the top...

 "Mixed Use Development"

This groups homepage is http://www.atkinsdesign.com

Wow, some of that stuff is absolutely amazing.  Like something straight out of a futuristic Star Wars type movie.

[perspicuity85]

Latest Update found here.

[TheArtist]

I have noticed that they already have that area blocked off and were ripping up the parking lot there. Guess they are getting the basic site work done before they do an official ground breaking.  That rendering shows the building looking a lot bigger than the one from the other corner showed it.  The first renderings had the building looking as if it were about 2 stories tall. This one looks to have it at least 3 or 4 floors. Nice to see some new construction going on downtown other than the arena.

[Kenosha]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Great point! [:O] Hey Bing!  Over here!  We found some space!  Oh, and there's some over there too!  And over there!  

TCC's vast parking lots are also totally lost tax revenue.  I was looking at downtown land records recently, and if I understand correctly, TCC pays $100/year taxes per city block of surface parking.  (Same for many other parking lots downtown, including church-owned and Tulsa Parking Authority lots.)  Imagine if Tulsa had preserved it's downtown buildings so that they could be utilized...we'd have hundreds of thousands of dollars more tax revenue each year.

Actually, they pay nothing. The $100 you saw is a nominal value that the assessor assigns to every parcel owned by a tax-exempt organization, like a church or government agency.

TCC does bring a lot of people into downtown, but, like the downtown churches, it doesn't create much downtown vitality. A question worth pondering: Given the thousands of people who come and go from that campus every day, why haven't any nearby retail businesses emerged to cater to that market? Find the answer to that, and you may discover what is holding downtown back.

The question is the answer to this one.  Why has no residual development occured because of TCC and the churches?  Because they, largely, control the adjacent properties, and those entities are not in the development bidness.  The private property owners that are potentially in the development bidness are either land banking or unable to justify development precisely because of the lack of momentum in the area. I predict the new TCC building will be a net positive for the area, and it won't be the last we see from the college.  They may well be getting into the real estate bidness soon...read  housing and retail.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I have noticed that they already have that area blocked off and were ripping up the parking lot there.

That is just tragic--tearing down a perfectly usable parking lot.  If we don't start preserving our parking lots now, Tulsa's history will be lost forever.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I have noticed that they already have that area blocked off and were ripping up the parking lot there.

That is just tragic--tearing down a perfectly usable parking lot.  If we don't start preserving our parking lots now, Tulsa's history will be lost forever.

And to think of all the effort preservationists have put into the Recent Past. What better embodies tulsa's Recent Past than surface parking lots? Shame to destroy our heritage like that. []

[Rico]

AJ glad to hear from you.....

The surge (pardon me for the use of that word) in schools beefing up and adding on.... Reminds me of the following post...

made by bruno.

quote:

imagine, making OSU-Tulsa into a four year school... they could have taken their $100 million... paying off the state regents- say $20 million... taken another $75 million and established a scholarship fund that would give a full ride to any oklahoma student with a GPA of 3.75... use the remaning $5 million to endow professorships...

imagine, 15,000 more students downtown virtually overnight...

imagine, the retail, commercial and resdential developement that will spread throughout downtown...

imagine, how theincog river plan will now be punctuated by rapid contiguous, private developement as the college kids wander through down town...

imagine, the future industries that move here to capture all of thes college students...

imagine, if just 10% of these students stay in tulsa permanently...

imagine, indeed...

__________


i know first hand about recruiting other YPs here... they fall into two camps... they are either OK with it as is, but want it to improve, or tulsa is not hip enough... it is that simple...

the ones who want hip are far too savvy to be bought off by "hey look at our three cool fun islands"... it has to be far more spread-out, it has to be guerilla marketing... the minute they catch a whiff of this sort of forced project, they'll cut and run... i've met many who scoff at bricktown but love westport in kc and beale street... they'll laugh at us too...


FIX OSU-Tulsa NOW!!
Make OSU-Tulsa a real 4 year state university... and ensure our future...

Hell of an idea... We may arrive at something very similar through the actions of the combined campuses....

[TheArtist]

I so wish OSU Tulsa would get the move on.  I hope their new president doesnt focus too much on the Stillwater campus.

The OSU Stillwater campus, despite having millions, even hundreds of  millions of dollars poured into it recently, has seen a steady decrease in enrollment.

I think about "a third" [] of OSU's students come from the Tulsa area.

OSU Tulsa has seen an increase in enrollment and is expected to increase by 10% yearly.  With TCC expanding its enrollment, there is going to be an even greater desire for students to continue their education in Tulsas colleges or BA's NSU. One of the reasons there has been a decline in many Oklahoma colleges is said to be that as the economy does better, college enrollment declines. So will be interesting to see how that plays out as well.

I know part of Stillwaters fear is that having a large OSU Tulsa will further leach a larger share of Tulsa students away from Stillwater.  But with the growing college options in Tulsa, including a growing TU, NSU, OU, Langston... More students are going to choose to stay in Tulsa regardless.


OSU is going to be facing more competition at both Stillwater and Tulsa campuses to other local colleges.  Continuing to pour the vast majority of money and focus into the Stillwater campus and ignoring the Tulsa campus will not increase their competitiveness and improve the states economy as much as it would if they would invest a larger sum into an urban Tulsa campus. Plus the synergies of having a great college campus in downtown for OSU, Tulsa, even the state, should not be underestimated.

One other thing... It would look pitiful if NSU grew to be a full fledged, publicly funded, graduate university before OSU Tulsa did. They have just finished their phase 2 building program that will allow them to service up to 8,000 students.  A suburb getting that before Tulsa? After we have screamed and fought for so long to get one?  Pitiful, pitiful.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist


OSU Tulsa has seen steady increases in enrollment.

According to OSU's website, here are OSU-Tulsa's enrollments for the past 5 years:

2003:  1967
2004:  2050
2005:  2059
2006:  2072
2007:  2049

A 4.2% increase over 5 years, all of which occurred in year 1 of the 5 years.

OSU-Stillwater enrollment for the past 5 years:

2003:  21604
2004:  21576
2005:  21402
2006:  21235
2007:  20956