Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[RecycleMichael]

It has been pretty quiet about the redevelopment of the east end ever since the islands talks began. Now that they have sunk a little, I thought we should continue the discussion about the proposed baseball stadium and development, blue dome area changes, even the beer selection at McNellie's.

Here is the link to the Global Partners plan...

http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/EastEnd.html

[USRufnex]

Sorry, I've been slipping of late... while an article on The Channels showed up predictably enough on the front page of last Sunday's TW, this was found on pg. A19...

Since this is probably archived, here goes (last I checked the World prefers entire articles be posted over selected quotes):

East End project slow-moving
P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer
11/26/2006
Tulsa World (Final Home Edition), Page A19 of News  


Developers are highly optimistic the plan will be another jewel downtown.
The East End downtown development project is still moving forward, just not as fast as some had hoped.

"It's a complicated project, but one that is very exciting," said Mitch Adwon, president of Adwon Properties, which represents the private developers in the land acquisition for the site.

Global Development Partners of Washington, D.C., has been working with local officials for a few years on a plan to convert about 34 acres on the east side of downtown into a regional destination point that would include a baseball stadium for the Tulsa Drillers and surrounding mixed-use developments.

While the development firm has contracts on 30 acres, it has only closed on one tract that is a little more than an acre. It had hoped to complete the remaining closings by late fall.

"We're still on track, we just won't be able to close by the end of November," said Adwon. "It's just going to take a little longer."

Adwon said the closing delays are due to the complexity of the loan paperwork.

But, he said, the delay hasn't stopped national retailers from expressing interest in the site.

Chuck Lamson, the president of the Tulsa Drillers, said he is still in negotiations with the developers.

"They are still getting all of the properties and I think we've reached a point that we need to coordinate between all of the parties -- us, the developer and the city," he said.

Lamson said the project is exciting and he feels "cautiously optimistic" that everything will move forward in a reasonable time frame.

"Everyone would like this to be sooner than later, including myself," Lamson said. "But I have found that with something of this nature you just have to be patient and work through the issues that come up."

Economic Development Director Don Himelfarb said the city is very supportive of the project and has had several conversations with the developers.

"It's our hope that this development does come together. It's an ambitious project," he said. "We, like everyone else, would like to see some tangible movement."

Himelfarb said if there is anything the city can do to help the developers, "we're willing to at least talk about it."

He said at this point, the developers need to piece together all of the needed real estate.

"If in fact, they are able to execute their full plan, I think it would have a substantial economic impact on the city, especially with job creation, property taxes and sales taxes," he said.

"There is no part of the city's health that it wouldn't touch in some fashion," he added.

Global Development is so confident about their project that it has a marketing broBalance = 30.0 ptschure touting the project on its Web site to attract retailers.

The brochure states that the East End will consist of more than 1.9 million square feet of mixed-use development, including more than 450,000 square feet of retail and dining experiences, 800 urban living units, three high-quality hotels, 150,000 square feet of modern office space and the baseball stadium.

In August, Kevin Justh, Global Development's senior vice president, said the goal of the development is to integrate the best mix of uses that will support a large daytime population and nighttime residents.

Once construction begins, it would take a few years to finish the first phase and five years to complete the entire project, he said.

Justh said the group plans to seek a tax increment financing district from the city. In a TIF district, some of the property and sales tax revenues generated from a development are used to fund infrastructure improvements that normally would be the responsibility of the developer.

Justh has said the group has no plans to seek a public vote for sales tax to fund the project.

[aoxamaxoa]

The developer will end up "taking it down " piece by piece. Far too expensive to buy that much property at once and then developing it successfully in a short time period. A very slow process due to lack of densities is obvious. And financially dangerous in light of this being a rather new company. Despite the firm's "expert" personnel, it is risky to think this developer can hang in there long enough to actually profit but more importantly provide the quality development desired by the citizens.

I have mentioned before the questions I have about the broker and potential conflicts of interest, the type of mixed use contemplated, and the developer qualifications. However, I will reiterate it seems wrong to be duplicitous with taxpayer assets and that a ballpark in downtown Tulsa is not the same as in Phoenix, OKC, Indianapolis et al.

[jdb]

"Global Development is so confident about their project that it has a marketing broBalance = 30.0 ptschure touting the project on its Web site to attract retailers."

Say it isn't so!
The mind boggles!!
All doubts defenistrated!!!

Jumpin' Jesus on a pogostick, I haven't read anything as lame since the Davaz post in 3rd person.
jdb

[TheArtist]

^ Yea I caught that too.  I was like, "Heck I can print up brochures, do all the time, doesn't really cost anything or take much effort."  That comment was kind of lame. If thats the best evidence they could manage to drum up for the certainty of this thing happening, makes ya wonder.

I do hope it happens though.  As for the, buying up the property thing little by little... wouldnt it be smarter to buy most if not all of it up in the beginning?  I would suspect that after parts of the development actually became reality others would look at the remaining property and consider it more valuable to keep or sell at a then much higher price.

[Renaissance]

Yeah, the marketing brochure proves nothing.

"Cautiously optimistic" is probably the right approach when thinking about this project.  It sounds like they're lacking somebody on the ground locally to coordinate their property accrual.  Probably having trouble quieting all titles, and I'll bet the publicity caused some holdouts looking for more money.  Still, it's encouraging that they're talking to Lamson at Drillers, rather than proceeding without him.  More troubling is the possibility that their financing is getting sticky.  The profits on these things are so marginal, it's sometimes a hairsbreadth whether they get off the ground or not.  These guys seem to know how to leverage capital, though - they wouldn't have gotten past their first project otherwise.

I'm most encouraged by two things on their website.  First, Gallery Place: it's wildly successful in D.C.  My sister lives there and the yuppies love it.  It's well-managed and trendy and Tulsans would flip over a similar project.  Second, their architectural partner is HKS.  If you look at their recent projects, you'll get excited about the same sort of practical but cutting edge work coming downtown.

Again, if the financing gets off the ground . . . cautiously optimistic.

[aoxamaxoa]

" As for the, buying up the property thing little by little... wouldnt it be smarter to buy most if not all of it up in the beginning?"

This presents a huge carrying cost price tag.
Any competent developer must have a critical mass committed to build immediately to make it work.

And BTW, D.C. is a megalopolis. Not Tulsey Town.

[Renaissance]

quote:
And BTW, D.C. is a megalopolis. Not Tulsey Town.

Objection, Your Honor - irrelevant and inflammatory.  The comparison is to the developers, not the market.  They have a solid track record and it's encouraging that they see a financial future for real estate in Tulsa (even if some [cough, cough] do not).

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

" As for the, buying up the property thing little by little... wouldnt it be smarter to buy most if not all of it up in the beginning?"

This presents a huge carrying cost price tag.
Any competent developer must have a critical mass committed to build immediately to make it work.

And BTW, D.C. is a megalopolis. Not Tulsey Town.

Using the word "Competent" with the realtor involved is an oxymoron.......

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd


I'm most encouraged by two things on their website.  First, Gallery Place: it's wildly successful in D.C.  My sister lives there and the yuppies love it.  It's well-managed and trendy and Tulsans would flip over a similar project.  

The problem with that is... this firm did not develop Gallery Place.  The principals of this firm worked did that development while at other firms.  Whether these "principals" have the access to capital, resources, and expertise they had at their old firm is a crucial question.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Floyd


I'm most encouraged by two things on their website.  First, Gallery Place: it's wildly successful in D.C.  My sister lives there and the yuppies love it.  It's well-managed and trendy and Tulsans would flip over a similar project.  

The problem with that is... this firm did not develop Gallery Place.  The principals of this firm worked did that development while at other firms.  Whether these "principals" have the access to capital, resources, and expertise they had at their old firm is a crucial question.

Aha.  That explains the loss of momentum . . . big ideas, market feasibility, but lack of nuts and bolts, on-the-ground experience.  They really need to get some competent local folks helping out, although I'm sure that skews their pre-project overhead costs.  They probably underestimated the property accrual costs, and I'll bet they're getting a worse holdout problem than they expected with parcel owners.

On a different subject within this thread, I hit up the Continental Lounge over Thanksgiving weekend.  It was very happening - a lot of fun.  Lots of young lawyers and professional types I knew from a couple of years back.  There is definitely a market for the type of urban development being pushed in Blue Dome.  Just a question of whether critical mass can be achieved.

[aoxamaxoa]

Floyd
1)There is a financial future in real estate here for these developers and that broker. I am not certain that is a good thing. I bet they are not far enough along to be approaching individual parcel owners.
2) The Continental is a nice place. It will survive until the pack moves on to the next new thing. There are not enough drinkers to support all the current establishments. Even on a good night....818 seems to be slower as is Dirty's and Arnies and 1974. It is about the market just as much as it is about the developer....

Critical mass? Catholic?

[Renaissance]

I haven't been to 818 yet.  

By "critical mass," I mean some sort of tipping point where the area achieves the density of an established district.  This elusive status is hard to define, but I think it happens when entrepreneurs stop being seen as "pioneering," and the status of the area as a destination is a given.  See, e.g., Brookside.

[aoxamaxoa]

Business in the bars on Brookside seems to be declining as it rotates and shuffles into downtown. I know Cherry Street is not what it was 2 years ago. What do I know?
I just observe this entertainment type once in a while. It's not safe being in either spot late night drinking.

Now, casinos? That seems to be where the action is these daze. maybe the new developer will team up with the Tribe and create more losers...

[Renaissance]

Well, I only hit the bars in Tulsa about four times a year, but when I hit 'em, I hit 'em hard.  My experience over Thanksgiving was that downtown is a bit down these days, since the closing of some dance clubs and that piano bar.  On the other hand, Brookside seemed to be near the best I've seen it and still growing/filling in.

This brings up another question - how much room for nightlife is there in Tulsa?  Can Tulsa support a thriving East End/Blue Dome and Brookside/Cherry Street?

The answer over the past few years seems to have been no - bars are closing in one district when they're opening in the other, a sort of seesaw effect.  I think only one thing can counteract this cycle, and that is residential development.  If downtown can add serious housing units, I think we'll see an uptick in nightlife without a drain on Midtown.