Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[SXSW]

I prefer the Brookside scene, but downtown (expecially SoBo) has some good places as well.  While I think the East End proposal will add a few new bars it will mainly help the existing ones by adding 800 residential units and significant amount of new retail space, on par with that of a new shopping mall.  The baseball stadium and the proposed fountain plaza at 4th and Frankfurt will be "anchors".

By the looks of their plan it will really improve the areas surrounding the existing Blue Dome District that is now just abandoned buildings and parking lots, areas east of Elgin between 2nd and 8th streets.  This development could revitalize the 1st Street District which was on its way to becoming a nice walkable club district until several of the big clubs closed.  Make 2nd Street more of a bar/pub district, and then from there south and east it will be the East End's mix of retail stores, restaurants (which downtown REALLY needs), loft apartments, and hotels.  Would be nice to see a Hyatt-type luxury highrise hotel for the site at 3rd and Elgin, a smaller "boutique" hotel at the corner of 6th and Elgin, and then a cheaper Residence Inn or something by the ballpark.

An overlay of the proposed district in east downtown:


Color code:
Red = residential
Orange = retail
Yellow = mixed-use
Blue = office
Purple = hotel

[TheArtist]

This is really the most significant and important development in Tulsa.  I think that fact was "drowned out" a bit from all the Channels hoopla.

[jdb]

"...I'll bet the publicity caused some holdouts looking for more money...".


How much you willing to wager?

Global's interest - back in the beginning, long before any publicity peep - seemed focused on just the property inside the projects footprint with the abutting tracts (crumbs) offered up to local speculators for various and somewhat obvious reason(s).

Seemingly, that made sense.

Anyway, Greedy Holdouts get picked off pretty quickly around these parts. There's a curt courtship where one is encouraged to see the bigger picture and failing that the M.E.N. from T.D.A. show up with rubber hoses for a vision correction session.

Remember?

AECOM, Desco, Etc. (spit) all had two things in common: one, they wanted the whole 115 acre pie for themselves: and two, they folded and left town with little more than some meager gift bags from the City for their efforts.

Here's a bet:
"What's the key issue keeping Lamson on the fence?".  

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Well, I only hit the bars in Tulsa about four times a year, but when I hit 'em, I hit 'em hard.  My experience over Thanksgiving was that downtown is a bit down these days, since the closing of some dance clubs and that piano bar.  On the other hand, Brookside seemed to be near the best I've seen it and still growing/filling in.

This brings up another question - how much room for nightlife is there in Tulsa?  Can Tulsa support a thriving East End/Blue Dome and Brookside/Cherry Street?

The answer over the past few years seems to have been no - bars are closing in one district when they're opening in the other, a sort of seesaw effect.  I think only one thing can counteract this cycle, and that is residential development.  If downtown can add serious housing units, I think we'll see an uptick in nightlife without a drain on Midtown.

SNAP! Yes, residential, college dorms, is what needs to feed the east end. Good Floyd! Agreed.

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

"...I'll bet the publicity caused some holdouts looking for more money...".


How much you willing to wager?

Global's interest - back in the beginning, long before any publicity peep - seemed focused on just the property inside the projects footprint with the abutting tracts (crumbs) offered up to local speculators for various and somewhat obvious reason(s).

Seemingly, that made sense.

Anyway, Greedy Holdouts get picked off pretty quickly around these parts. There's a curt courtship where one is encouraged to see the bigger picture and failing that the M.E.N. from T.D.A. show up with rubber hoses for a vision correction session.

Remember?

AECOM, Desco, Etc. (spit) all had two things in common: one, they wanted the whole 115 acre pie for themselves: and two, they folded and left town with little more than some meager gift bags from the City for their efforts.

Here's a bet:
"What's the key issue keeping Lamson on the fence?".  

Free Rent?

[jdb]

No doubt money is an issue - but before one can haggle over rates, there has to be a place to rent, no?

The current ball field was recently paid off, right?
Which gives the Drillers a chance to start making some money, right?
What happens if the club walks away from that corner but there's no new place built for them to move into?

If I were Lamson I'd say, "Build it, and we might come." which probably has Global pulling out their few remaining strands of hair.

Just a wild guess on my part, jdb

[USRufnex]

Gee... what a difference a year makes.

12/4/2006

quote:Originally posted by SXSW

...While I think the East End proposal will add a few new bars it will mainly help the existing ones by adding 800 residential units and significant amount of new retail space, on par with that of a new shopping mall.  The baseball stadium and the proposed fountain plaza at 4th and Frankfurt will be "anchors".

By the looks of their plan it will really improve the areas surrounding the existing Blue Dome District that is now just abandoned buildings and parking lots, areas east of Elgin between 2nd and 8th streets.

12/11/2005

quote:Originally posted by SXSW

I'll give my two cents.  I am in agreement with AVERAGE JOE and others that a downtown soccer stadium is just not necessary.  I like sportyart's idea of putting one where that abandoned warehouse complex resides east of OSU-Tulsa (and less than a half mile from downtown).  Has anyone ever seen that place, it could easily be the scene of a horror movie.  Scary place....<snip>  

.....Leave the East Village for smaller-scale urban developments like loft apartments and street level retail and restaurants, or maybe some anchors like the central library and a movie theater.  Let the East Village develop into its own neighborhood.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by jdb


Here's a bet:
"What's the key issue keeping Lamson on the fence?".

Sure, I'll play along.

I'm guessing he'll want "total control."  Which in many ways is more important than free rent.

In August 2005, there seemed to be two competing plans for the "east village."  One from Global Development and a second concept  that presumably involved a minor league baseball stadium but didn't involve Global...

--August 28, 2005 Tulsa World article found here (in its entirety)...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5988372&postcount=1

Now snatch the pebble from my hand...

You enjoy playing "Deal or no deal," jdb? [8D]

[jdb]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

You enjoy playing "Deal or no deal," jdb? [8D]

If it involves a gamble, I'm in - what are the rules?

2 questions:

Is there a general accepted split concerning consession profits?

What generates more cash for a club: tickets or beer?

[RecycleMichael]

I am guessing the average Tulsa Driller Baseball fan spends over ten dollars on food and drink and the average ticket revenue is only three dollars or so.

They give away a lot of tickets.

I bet they make a pretty good chunk of change doing catered parties, selling merchandise and  advertising as well.

I would guess the Drillers want to control a little more than just the footprint of the ballpark. They probably want a little share of parking revenues and want to be able to control the potential vendors/tailgaters of fans. That is becoming more common in new stadium deals. It can be very reasonable demands or it could be punitive.

A good example of both is found in Chicago.

It could be wonderful if we could follow the Chicago Cubs model of Wrigleyville. The entire ballpark is surrounded by entertainment, housing and shopping.

http://www.chicagohome.com/NHDetails.cfm?NH_ID=59

The Cubs also get a little weird about what the neighbors do. They sued the building owners across the street because they were renting out the roofs for fans as well.

[YoungTulsan]

Wouldn't the passage of The Channels have a huge effect on a feasibility study concerning a development like this?  I'm betting the developer is waiting to see what Tulsa does regarding the Channels proposal, because I don't see there being enough demand (Currently) to support both developments.  The Channels theoretically calls for tons of office space and residential that will, if anything, suck all the potential out of downtown.  They probably don't want to move forward until the Channels is officially dead and buried.

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Wouldn't the passage of The Channels have a huge effect on a feasibility study concerning a development like this?  I'm betting the developer is waiting to see what Tulsa does regarding the Channels proposal, because I don't see there being enough demand (Currently) to support both developments.  The Channels theoretically calls for tons of office space and residential that will, if anything, suck all the potential out of downtown.  They probably don't want to move forward until the Channels is officially dead and buried.

The Channels has nothing to do with the east side....ala mutually exclusive.

The Drillers should change their name to match the city if indeed they were to go by the tracks. Might I suggest the T Town Clowns (which was one of the names back in the 50's and 60's for our team in the all Negro minor league).

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Floyd
There are not enough drinkers to support all the current establishments.

There are 2 reasons for this:
1) I grew up in South Tulsa, where almost half the people I went to high school with were not born in Tulsa.  Their parents weren't from here, and knew nothing of the city except for its generic retail around 71st st.  I, however, had several friends that lived in Midtown, and I frequently hung out around Midtown in high school.  One weekend when I was home from college I found some of my former high school classmates going out for a drink at a TGI Friday's.  I immediately wisked them off to Brookside and and the Blue Dome bars.  Most of them had never heard of any of them, and were surprised to learn that Tulsa actually had places like that.  There are thousands of college-aged people turning 21 every day that grew up in a Tulsa suburban area.  Most of them have never heard of the Blue Dome District.  I get this a lot: "dude, isn't that in Dallas?"

2) Most people from Tulsa don't stay here.  Every year, thousands of college graduates that grew up in Tulsa look for a job somewhere else.  They grew up in the suburbs where they heard dangerous tales of the Tulsa downtown- a crime-riddled cesspool of dispair!

A trendy, well developed area like the East End cancan succeed in Tulsa and is in high demand.  Tulsa needs a true entertainment destination.  Brookside and Cherry Street are the closest things we have now- and are not bad, but are not enough.  Cities much smaller than Tulsa are passing it up quickly.  I recently went to Little Rock's River Market District and found it to be a vibrant popular entertainment destination for the entire Little Rock metro.  It even has a real cable car system that runs throughout the area and back and forth across the river.  I found the bars and restaurants to be on the subpar side for the most part, at least Little Rock has a real entertainment destination.  By the way, LR's city proper population is about 200,000 less than Tulsa and its metro population is about a quarter of a million less.

Global Development- get going!

[perspicuity85]

Afterthought-

I just want to agree with those saying that residential development is definitely needed downtown in order for Brookside, Cherry Street, and the East End to all succeed.  I'm hoping that a true entertainment district will cause more people in their 20s to stay in Tulsa and move into Downtown or Midtown.  Hopefully the East End will actually help support Brookside and Cherry Street by bringing in more people from the suburban areas to Midtown and Downtown.

[TheArtist]

I too find it amazing how many people I run across who know nothing about midtown or the historic parts of Tulsa.  I will be like,,, Would you like to go to Philbrook? or Have you been to Philbrook to see the such and such exhibit? And they will answer,,, Where?  And I will have to launch into a description.  

Even people, especially younger ones for some reason, who have lived here most of their life, seem to have no idea of what midtown or downtown has to offer.

Perhaps getting this East End development going and having it actively promoted will make people realize there is more to Tulsa than south Tulsa, the mall and suburbs.