Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[aoxamaxoa]

quote:Originally posted by unknown

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
One night? You all are tripping....

Yeah, an organic garden and a smoothie bar would do much better... and provide education to our youth that a healthy lifestyle is a smart lifestyle.

way to go "unkown" ....you are all knowing.

Music is the only reason I go downtown.

[carltonplace]

The east end development is as close to a magic bean (maybe you prefer magic cows or golden egg laying geese, santa or big bangs) as we could ask for: it includes retail, dining, baseball/concerts, residence and hotels(3) all within walking distance to the CBD, the arena, Blue Dome, and 6th Street. A short trolley ride gets you to the river or Brady. This is something we should be excited about.

Hurry GDP!

[TheArtist]

Its obvious no one development will do it.  The east end is just going to be one more piece to the puzzle, each piece helping the other and supporting the next. Soon the image of a real thriving downtown will begin to emerge.

[perspicuity85]

Preach on, Swake and carltonplace.  The East End has the potential to do more for Tulsa's urban core than anything else.

Floyd- excellent point.  I have been posting all over this forum about the importance of bringing the suburbanites into the urban core.  That is essential for any city I have ever seen that had a vibrant urban area.  OKC should be evidence enough.  Let's face it, Bricktown is not that great, but it serves as a entertainment destination for the entire OKC metro area.  And what is a major part of Bricktown?-- a baseball stadium.

Furthermore, the East End not only brings in the suburbanites, but can serve as a regional entertainment destination.  NW Ark, Wichita, and SW Missouri residents are just waiting for Tulsa to become a virbrant city.  Tulsa has the potential to give residents of the slightly smaller regional markets what they don't have in their home city.  NW Ark is one of the 5 fastest growing metro areas in the US.  Bartlesville can't build fast enough to accomodate its latest influx of residents.  Wichita is a metro area of over half a million people- with virtually no urban core at all.  Wichita is like one giant suburb.

The time for Tulsa is now!  
CARPE DIEM!!

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by SXSW

The only problem is that this ballpark won't face the skyline.

Not even remotely a problem.

quote:I know most ballparks face the north or east, but could an exception be made?

No.

Baseball parks are laid out with home plate in the west part of the lot so the batter isn't facing the setting sun while trying to hit a 95 mph fastball. This may be more than just rule-of-thumb, it might very well be in the bylaws of professional baseball.  Put another way, you'll get some batter killed taking high heat to the noggin if he's squinting into the setting sun.

Competitive integrity aside, the fans wouldn't be very comfortable if you had the field facing west toward the skyline. Ever notice which seats fill up the fastest at the Drillers games? The third base side. Which seats are the last to fill up? Down the first base line. Why? The third base side is in the shade for the first pitch, while the first base stands are cooking in the sun. Now imagine the entire stadium frying like that and trying to watch the game looking into the sun to boot.

You're right that the view would be great, but it's not that essential to the experience. It's nice to have that view, if you happen to have a quality site on the west side of your downtown. If you don't, you're still downtown and enjoying all the advantages that provides. OKC's ballpark doesn't face their skyline.

[aoxamaxoa]

Fans go to ballparks, load up on dogs and brewski and head home....they will do little for the area. Green space would draw more people. Their free and gathering places to boot.

There are too many clubs and too few constant customers. My survey says everytime a new place opens another fails. What were those places Kitchell and Saeger had going on 3 years ago everyone thought were going to set the trend?

Less narciscism and more productive thinking here please.

[bacjz00]

Today's ballpark

Fans go to the ballpark, load up on dogs and brewski then walk directly into an adjacent parking lotand head home....

EastEnd ballpark

Fans go to the ballpark early, enjoy a pre-game meal at one of many restaurants within walking distance of the stadium, enjoy some live music, THEN go to the game, STILL load up on dogs and drinks (soda...of course) and then after the game walk past retail stores on their way to the parking garage where they contribute some sales tax dollars to a local merchant and THEN head home....

Grinch.

[ky]

[}:)Its all about the money . I thin the issue is also dead and buried!

[jdb]

quote:Originally posted by ky

[}:)Its all about the money . I thin the issue is also dead and buried!

Insightfull grammar, thanks for sharing.


Ok, before this thread turns anymore stupid:

Say we have 100 people (it's possible) that have plucked up the courage to move DT into the EE.
What do you speculators think is important?

Vibrant
Dense
Walkable
Livible
Shoppable
Parkable
Sleepable
Sustainable...

Pick one, I dare you - jdb

[citizen of the world]

For an idea how the East End development could help Tulsa, look at San Diego's east end as a model.  The Padres built a new baseball stadium in a completely run down part of San Diego's downtown (the east end) and sparked a wave of development that has created a delightful neighborhood of mixed-use urban density.  The residential choices are vast and attractive, although mainly to young urban professionals and empty-nesters.  Although the San Diego east end is next to the revitalized Gaslamp Quarter, with its wide variety of restaurants, clubs, theaters, retail and hotels, and sits on beautiful San Diego bay with beaches, ideal weather, world class zoo, museums and theme parks, it's still an excellent example for Tulsa to follow.  

Tulsa has great potential but needs to get started now.  Start with Transit Oriented Development (TOD) and build dense mixed use projects, saving the historical buildings as much as possible.  Ensure walkable residential neighborhoods are built around traffic-calmed streetscapes that include lots of trees and deemphasize convenient parking.  Make parking difficult (intentionally), to encourage people to get out of the isolation of their cars and enjoy a walk down the widened sidewalks to shop, go to work, the gym or out to dinner or to entertainment.

You have to build a mass of residential units first, because retail follows residential.  You can't build retail concurrently with residential because it will fail.  Therefore it couldn't get financing in the first place because they have to perform a market demand study and present it to the bank.  No rooftops (commercial real estate developer's term for residential populations), no retail, period.

A similar chicken and egg situation exists with residential development relative to communities targeting families: with no school, no houses get sold.  So schools must accompany residential development intended for families.

The problem with most urban developments is that downtown areas tend to have higher crime rates, fewer parks and worse schools than the suburbs.  You can revitalize downtown with yuppies and empty-nesters but it takes longer than if you could include families in the mix.  So to interest families you must have a good school choice, some recreational parks and good security.  That's a tall order for any urban area so it's probably best to focus on the young adults, single adults and 'empty nesters'.  

But residential still has to lead the retail, and it needs to happen on a public transit line.  Trolleys are preferable to buses because developers know it's much harder to remove rails than to change bus routes.  There needs to be a solid committment to good public transit to minimize the problem with cars and too many parking lots.  Building more parking garages is part of the solution but not a magic bullet.  Gettin rid of surface parking lots IS part of the solution.  City needs to assess a VERY HIGH annual per-stall fee for surface parking lots in the CBD - and damn the torpedoes from the parking lot owners.

[TheArtist]

^ Lots of good points.  I think if we get the # of living quarters they are wanting to put in the east end, plus the Mayo district, some of the other developments will keep plugging a few more in.  This will be enough to possibly get a small grocery store like a neighborhood market in the area.  

I think that Tulsa really needs to work to make its downtown the metro regions choice for those young people who want the city life.  We have the smallest inklings of that but mostly with the locals at the moment.  Getting this east end development will start to cement the notion that its ok to live work and play in Tulsas downtown.

This in my opinion is THE most important development going on in Tulsa.  If the Channels hadnt been such a big topic, this would have been the headlines. I just hope it actually happens.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What tradition? The Drillers started out downtown. The fairgrounds stole the tradition in the first place.

What tradition?  Excuse me... my grandfather LOVED baseball and NEVER told me of ANY Tulsa Oilers "tradition" in downtown... maybe it's because the Oilers hadn't played downtown since 1929....

How EXACTLY did the fairgrounds "steal" the Oilers/Drillers???

Please stop smokin' the joints AJ's sellin'...

[jdb]

"Tulsa has great potential but needs to get started now." - CoTW

"It 'started' a long time back...it just takes longer to see our progress!" - jdb

Disclaimer: The above 'bumper sticker' mentality, in the spirit of good ole fashion ribbing, is as pleasant as I can be on the subject: however, for the sake of my unnamed sparring partner (Carlton's) better health through blasting the poster known as jdb, I pledge to come back spitting mad this time next year.

THIS JUST IN:

"...and damn the torpedoes from the parking lot owners." CoTW

The City owns the parking lots and lest we forget the trash service hearings, the Puiblic Works water lines and sidewalks debaucle and a few other pedestrian issues.

"We've come a long ways since last year!" - jdb

Note to self: Jager makes it hard to spell.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

quote:Originally posted by ky

[}:)Its all about the money . I thin the issue is also dead and buried!

Insightfull grammar, thanks for sharing.


Ok, before this thread turns anymore stupid:

Say we have 100 people (it's possible) that have plucked up the courage to move DT into the EE.
What do you speculators think is important?

Vibrant
Dense
Walkable
Livible
Shoppable
Parkable
Sleepable
Sustainable...

Pick one, I dare you - jdb

I'd take "livable"...... but since you misspelled livable, I'm moving to Houston out of spite.... []

Okay, "I'll take 'Livible' for $500, Alex..."
http://www.mostlivable.org/cities/tulsa/home.html

Here's the problem:  "livable" is always in the eyes of the beholder.  Downtown Tulsa is livable........ but only if I have a car.  I do have a car now... but I won't live there because there's not enough to differentiate it from the rest of Tulsa (jazz-combo in a sushi-bar withstanding).  Why live somewhere, when you can visit...  In fact, after my car broke down in that netherworld known as the area of T-town east of hwy. 169, I was able to walk to restaurants, QT, and a grocery store from my east Tulsa apt... that would NOT have been possible living around that "Blue Dome" thingy or "Brady."  Yeah, I live in a district alright... the Brady Bunch District... makes me wanna go out and buy one of them station wagons with the real-wood paneling on the doors...[:O]

In the real world, there are these things we call "trade-offs."  If I live downtown in an older building that will require me to scrub my own dishes and service the bathtub drain with liquid plumber once a week; this is a trade-off.  

In return, what do I get?  The priviledge of waiting for the 6:50 bus only to find out it won't get to me until 7:40?  The priviledge of walking the streets at night alone and running into a freakazoid I don't already know?  The priviledge of having to "bus it" to a grocery/liquor/clothing store?  Why would I "bus it" to go to WalMart, Albertson's, Reasor's or Home Depot???  I mean, c'mon now...

Awww.  Let's just go down the list.  I fear "vibrant."  Why?  Because it means I'll hafta move, that's why.  Due to either higher rents or scary property tax hikes.  Vibrant = gentrification.... aka "magic baseball" -- more on that later...

Next term:  dense.  I like it.  It can stay.  You don't really appreciate urban density until you're mugged by three youths who steal your wallet and throw your keys into the sewer while nobody's watching........ it gives you a whole new perspective on "safety in numbers."

I'll take "walkable" for $200.... I don't want to drive a few blocks just to get a carton of milk/cigs.... besides, last time I lived in Tulsa, I gained 10 lbs. in a matter of a couple of weeks before I realized how much exercise I got in Chicago's "walkable urbanity."

Ummm.  Shopable.  Okay, I don't have to have much... don't need a corner IKEA (would take up more room than a baseball or soccer stadium anyway).  I'm sure the East End will contain trendy and overpriced garbage you just can't find elsewhere (unless you're in Utica Sq)... but all I need is socks, underwear, eclectic crap that could easily be satisfied by a couple of yippy-skippy-hippy, creepy-leather-freak or black-turtleneck-snap-your-fingers shops.... leaving the tourists to shop at Needless Markup's or Nordstrom's or any combination of fru-fru-downtown-is-cool shops like these:   http://www.indydt.com/circlecentrefeature.html

Parkable.  It's official:  I'm no longer a McNellie's virgin... but it did take me 10-15 mins to park....... okay, it took me 10 seconds to park and then the next 10-15 mins walking around petrified that I couldn't find the street sign that indicated I'd parked illegally.  I felt all dirty inside even after I realized that I only had to walk a few feet into the door of a downtown pub and was doing so without breaking any laws... my god, the prospects of minor league baseball fans at a pub that could easily be a soccer-pub superior to Ginger's Ale House in Chicago?  I'd take a job there just to tell Drillers' fans, "No, we don't have Pabst Blue Ribbon on tap... it'll cost ya' three dollars for a bottle... too rich for your tastes?  sorry... and no, we won't serve 'em in jelly jars, even if ya' brung your own!"

Sleepable.  Trust me, the human body can get used to anything.  If I can sleep through the "el" train passing by every 7-9 mins 500 ft away from my back window AND put up with the ear-exploding volume of Jimi Hendrix's Foxy Lady playing in the upstairs apt. on a regular basis, then dealing with a downtown Tulsa abode will be just fine....... I probably would stay awake at a Heavenly Hospitality hotel if they got their way, though... silence kinda freaks me out...

Sustainable.  Okay, nothing comes to mind right now except Monty Python...
 Oh, Lord, please don't burn us,
Don't grill or toast your flock.
Don't put us on the barbecue,
Or simmer us in stock.
Don't braise or bake or boil us,
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh please don't lightly poach us,
Or baste us with hot fat,
Don't fricassee or roast us,
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don't stick thy servants Lord,
In a Rotissomat...


 

[jdb]

I was going for "Lively" backed up and attempted "livable", have not been able to sleep since.

I can't even begin to reply; I want to but it will have to wait - Frontal Lobe Failure.
jdb