Let's talk about the east end of downtown

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What tradition? The Drillers started out downtown. The fairgrounds stole the tradition in the first place.

What tradition?  Excuse me... my grandfather LOVED baseball and NEVER told me of ANY Tulsa Oilers "tradition" in downtown... maybe it's because the Oilers hadn't played downtown since 1929....

How EXACTLY did the fairgrounds "steal" the Oilers/Drillers???

Please stop smokin' the joints AJ's sellin'...

As opposed to drinking the soccer-fueling bong water of yours??? [8D]

Answer me this -- Where did Babe Ruth play an exhibition game with the New York Yankees in Tulsa?

[USRufnex]

I'm assuming you know it was downtown on Elgin... if that's the case... so what.

Sammy Sosa played for Tulsa at the fairgrounds.  And neither one of us was alive when Babe Ruth played in Tulsa so arguing that this constitutes some sort of downtown tradition is about as inane as implying Shoeless Joe Jackson hit you up for quarters in a downtown Tulsa parking lot....

But answer me this -- Where did Pele play the ONLY time he came to Tulsa?

hmmmm... the answer to that question is downtown (I saw Pele at the Assembly Center in the '70s)... but it doesn't matter... the Tulsa Roughnecks played their outdoor games at Skelly... and the Oilers/Drillers have been playing their games at the fairgrounds for over seventy-five years...

A minor league ballpark in the East End is robbing Peter (the fairgrounds) to pay Paul (downtown).  Implying that minor league baseball is somehow "magic" is sheer folly.

Wrigley Field was never conceived as a "mixed-use" project.  For decades, the Cubs only played day games because the neighborhood around the stadium didn't approve of forfeiting the ability to park on weeknights...

Then came the advent of cable tv in the 80s... WGN showed Chicago Cubs home games across the country, Wrigleyville experienced a revival thanks in no small part to college frat-types and childless twenty-somethings looking to party... the area changed into an entertainment district and the Cubbies became the accidental beneficiary and gained the political clout to push forward with lights/night games...

The impact of a successful downtown baseball stadium in Tulsa for the Drillers wouldn't have NEARLY the effect that a major league ballpark would have... the Florida Marlins were looking at moving to OKC, but no major sports leagues have considered Tulsa... with the exception of Major League Soccer.

While we're at it, where would residents rather live?  an area with three minor league night games a week drawing 4,000 fans a pop or a major league soccer game drawing 15,000 fans every other Saturday night?  I'm not saying one is superior to the other...... that seems to be the job of narrow-minded baseball fans who insist that a downtown ballpark is inherently superior to a home for a major league soccer team...

Tradition?  Here's some tradition:

1.  Over 25,000 fans at Skelly watched the Tulsa Roughnecks shutout the NY Cosmos 3-0 in a 1979 playoff game-- the fans stormed the field and carried goalkeeper Jack Brand and coach Alan Hinton on their shoulders....

2.  The second game between Tulsa and New York at Giants Stadium drew over 76,000 fans on a Wed. night... the second highest attended game in NASL history and one of the highest drawing games in the history of American professional soccer.

3.  On two separate occasions, over 30,000 fans watched Tulsa Roughnecks' games at Skelly... the games are televised back to NYC...

from a 1980 New York Cosmos broadcast... question from PBP commentator Jim Karvellas to Lea Arthur "I know this is your first trip to Tulsa, how do you like it, Lea"... "I love it here, Jim.  Welcome to Tulsa, the Oil Capital of the World.  This team is 6th (out of 24) in league attendance because 600,000 people here love their soccer team and tonight's game should be just like the name: Roughnecks."

4.  Chicago Sting fans hated the Tulsa Roughnecks (ask me how I know this)... in an indoor game at a sold out Chicago Stadium, the Roughnecks held a sign congratulating the Sting on their large crowd... then defender Victor Moreland starting throwing long-stemmed roses into the crowd... classic.

There are many, many more great moments... and that, my friend is history.  And among the many reasons why Tulsa soccer fans should never take a backseat to fans of any other sport; our support for NASL soccer differentiates Tulsa from Memphis or Nashville or Louisville or OKC or Little Rock or San Antonio...  it's what makes us unique.  And is why we deserve a team... and why, with an East End stadium, we soccer fans could turn McNellies into an internationally renouned pub... rather than just another watering hole for fans of the Texas League... []  









   

[RecycleMichael]

Not trying to be anti-soccer here...

Your argument is that The Tulsa soccer team drew bigger crowds than the Tulsa minor league baseball team.

For argument sake, your attendence figures are for a team that played over 20 years ago. Everything in the world has changed in that time.

They only played 15 home games a year. If they averaged 20,000 fans per game, they would be equal to the 300,000 the Drillers do.

I would love a multi-use stadium and I am sure the Drillers owuld play in one.

But the NASL soccer league demands the stadium be soccer only and that makes a proven commodity like baseball to be preferred by me.

[USRufnex]

It's a lie to say that Major League Soccer demands the stadium be "soccer only."  Repeating the "soccer only" lie over and over again will not make it true.

Even IF there were less soccer fans than AA baseball fans over the course of a season, MAJOR league soccer would have a greater impact because the ticket prices are higher... there's a MUCH higher level of media coverage... AND fans would come from further out... soccer fans from NW Ark/Joplin/Tahlequah and even OKC would go to a few games..... while the Drillers would just draw from Tulsa/the 'burbs because minor league baseball is a CASUAL sport... nobody cares if the Drillers won the first half of the Texas League... oh, wow, playoffs???  Who do we play... Frisco... or Springfield???

Do you really want to cement Tulsa as a minor league city and ignore a Major league opportunity... and the Drillers don't currently play in a dilapidated facility... they can easily keep playing at the fairgrounds for years until they get what they want.

And it is disengenuous to imply the Drillers would move to an expensive multi-purpose stadium and share dates as secondary tenant to a Major League Soccer team.  It wouldn't happen.  The Drillers have too good of a deal at the fairgrounds.  And MLS will NEVER come to Tulsa if it involves playing second-fiddle to the Drillers.  MLS can be a second tenant to the NFL Patriots or major league baseball's Nationals, but Tulsa is a much smaller market than Boston or DC...    

Toyota Park in Bridgeview, Illinois can easily be used for football and has a concert stage on one end that can easily be configured for concerts.  

THAT was the original plan from 2002 when LaFortune was going to propose the stadium.  Instead, we went with an arena, thus contributing to the nationwide glut of indoor arenas with more behind the curve thinking and keep up with the Joneses mentality...

Once again, you cannot play a high profile high school football game (Union/Jenks or state  playoffs) in an 8,000 seat baseball stadium... but you CAN play it in a 20,000 seat soccer/football stadium.  Baseball stadiums are more limited in their uses than soccer/football stadiums.

We soccer fans proved ourselves after a feasability study and the over 14,000 fans that went to the KC-Dallas exhibition game at Skelly... no other city has drawn that for a one-off MLS exhibition (Houston only did it as a doubleheader with Mexican teams)... over 5000 season ticket commitments going to waste.

I think Tulsa is a MUCH, MUCH better city for MLS soccer than Denver.... but they're getting Dick's Sporting Goods Park...

Broadcasting and Media Request-
When speaking about the Rapids' new stadium and soccer complex, please refer to it by its official designation, Dick's Sporting Goods Park, without using any shortened or altered versions of this name. The Colorado Rapids appreciate your cooperation.

heh-heh. []

[RecycleMichael]

You posted this Tulsa World story on BigSoccer.net that says that the league was only interested in towns with soccer only stadiums.

USRufnex13 Jun 2006, 12:51 AM
Hope is alive for futbol fans
By DAVE SITTLER World Sports Writer
6/11/2006

The americanization of Keith Eddy happened years ago. The transplanted Englishman remains hopeful that the United States eventually will adopt soccer with the same open-armed enthusiasm it welcomed him.

Eddy came to America in 1976 to play his beloved sport for the New York Cosmos. He arrived in Tulsa for a six-month business venture in 1982 and never left.

His USA roots now run so deep that he'll wave two flags during the 2006 World Cup, one featuring the Stars and Stripes, the other the Union Jack.

"I've been here basically half my life," said the 61-year-old Eddy, who hasn't lost his engaging British accent. "So I'd like England or USA to win it. I'm rooting for the two of them."

The 32-team, monthlong World Cup is contested every four years, with Germany hosting the 2006 event. A strong contender, England won its first match 1-0 Saturday over Paraguay; the underdog USA team starts play Monday against the Czech Republic.

The World Cup, the world's largest sporting event, is a lifeline for soccer lovers in this country. They cling to it every four years in hopes the worldwide passion it creates will finally ignite a widespread love for the game in the USA.

Soccer is huge in America for players from kindergarten

through college. But the frustration of soccer's leaders in the USA is that interest drops off significantly when those youngsters become adults, stop playing, lose interest and don't support the professional game.

Eddy, who founded the wildly popular Tulsa Soccer Club in 1992, is among those mystified why that intense childhood love for the game isn't maintained.

People like Eddy believed the next generation would be the educated generation. It would understand the game's nuances, and wouldn't be bored with soccer like us ignorant Baby Boomers.

"We've been saying for 20 years or more that when these kids who are playing now become adults, that will change," Eddy said. "But we still seem to be in that scenario, and I really don't know why."

Eddy's heard all the hackneyed excuses: There isn't enough scoring in soccer for Americans, who are used to scoreboards lighting up in football and basketball. The Yanks, used to timeouts and huddles, can't adapt to soccer's nonstop action.

"I've heard all that for the past 30 years," Eddy said.

But he's also seen the other side of it in America -- experienced sold-out stadiums where fans went bonkers for the lads booting that black-and-white ball around for 90 minutes.

The majority of Eddy's soccer career as a standout defenseman was played in Britain. But when he came to the States to play for Cosmos in the North American Soccer League, he was elected captain of a team that included Pele, the world superstar from Brazil.

Eddy knows the brilliant Pele was the primary reason the Cosmos often drew more than 70,000 spectators to Giants Stadium. But like his peers, he hoped by the time Pele was gone the game's popularity would have reached a level that the NASL would survive and thrive.

At one point, the NASL had 24 teams, including the Tulsa Roughnecks. But teams started folding because of financial problems until the league disbanded in 1984.

Tulsa was a city that once had soccer fever. It peaked when the Roughnecks won the 1983 NASL's Soccer Bowl title before more than 60,00 people Vancouver, Canada.

A month later, the Tulsa franchise was broke. The NASL folded the next year, eventually replaced by Major League Soccer.

Tulsa has retained a solid core of soccer fans from those glory days of the Roughnecks. There have been several attempts to get an MLS franchise for the city.

Last November, then-Mayor Bill LaFortune confirmed that an MLS franchise might relocate to Tulsa. Sources later confirmed that owners of the D.C. United franchise had a serious interest in putting a team in T-Town.

But the plan was shelved because of the city's lack of a soccer-only stadium, and the unwillingness of local investors to get involved.

"If Tulsa had a stadium, there is no question we would get a franchise," Eddy said. "But stadiums are not cheap. So you're going to have to have somebody with pretty deep pockets step up, and it doesn't appear that will happen."

Eddy remains convinced that Tulsa would support an MLS team. He cited a study done several years ago that showed Tulsa was second only to Tampa as the strongest cities for possible expansion.

But with Tulsa struggling to find enough funds to cover overrun costs on the city's new downtown arena, building a soccer-only stadium would be a hard sell.

So Eddy must be content to run the Tulsa Soccer Club he founded. Over the past 15 years, the club has grown from four to more than 30 elite teams, and Eddy has produced an impressive numbers of players who have earned college scholarships.

"The interest on the (Tulsa) youth level is massive," Eddy said. "But it really hasn't transformed into interest at the adult level.

"Dallas is a great example. There are thousands of kids playing in the Dallas area, and yet the MLS team in Dallas struggles for support."

As long as he's able, Keith Eddy will be among those dedicated to the Americanization of soccer. As he watches many of the 64 games, he'll dream that the interest generated by the 2006 World Cup will help in his quest.

"I think there's still a mentality in this country," said Eddy, "that soccer is a foreigners' game."

Are these not your words and is the person quoted not you?

[ky]

[xx(]soccer is so boring!!!!!

[USRufnex]

First, those are Dave Sittler's words, not mine.  The term is commonly referred to as "soccer specific," not soccer-only...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer-specific_stadium

quote:Soccer-specific stadium (SSS) is a term used mainly in the United States and Canada. It was coined by Lamar Hunt to refer to a sports stadium whose primary (but not only) purpose is to host soccer matches. An SSS may host other events such as other sporting events (mostly lacrosse and gridiron football), drum and bugle corps competitions, and concerts, but the design and purpose of an SSS is centered on soccer.

So using the term "soccer-only" is very, very  deceiving... and, in my opinion, an outright lie.

The stadium we're talking about would have had  a 20k seating capacity... it would have had sidelines about 5 yrds wider than a football field on each side...

NFL stadiums have a 60k- 80k capacity but are now built with soccer in mind and have extended sidelines.......

Once again, your multi-use baseball field WILL NOT be able to host the variety of events that my so-called "soccer-only" stadium would be able to host...

So, who's stadium is truly multi-purpose...

Certainly not the ballpark.  To say that the  proposed east end ballpark could host more varied events than a 20k seat "soccer stadium" would simply be wrong.  No matter how much you and AJ keep yapping about "multi-purpose," the soccer stadium would be able to host everything the ballpark could host, and more....... just not baseball.

Ky... you sure-nuff make some really nice jelly.... have you seen MLS in person or are you just repeating what a buncha jock-sniffing lugnuts told you to say....?

****And no, RM... my name is not Keith Eddy (if that was the question)... and as far as I know, my words have never been quoted in a TW article... but I am one of those kids who grew up with soccer and am ready to support a Tulsa team we shoulda got here back in the 90s...

[AVERAGE JOE]

Ah, Ruf stumping on behalf of his soccer fetish. Truly, the sound of one hand clapping...

[USRufnex]

Wow, AJ's first lie of 2007...  I'm sure there'll be many more where that came from.

[bacjz00]

Joe, I think Ruf makes some educated and well informed points and I'm pretty sure his posts deserve a little more than your sarcastic, uninformed spite.  Tulsa spoke loud and proud when it came to professional soccer, even as recently as a few years ago when the exhibition game came here.  While it may not be your cup of tea, you clearly don't represent all of Tulsa on this matter...Tulsa did that for itself by showing up in big numbers.  

It's just too bad that most of the pro soccer fans in this city don't have ties to BIG money or this would have been a done deal 10 years ago.  And for those who wonder why Tulsa didn't pass the original proposal for the soccer stadium?  We had no GUARANTEE for a pro franchise, only a handshake and it was not publicized very widely during that first vote.  

I'm not sure most Tulsans realize what they were passing up when they voted it down in '97. MLS has become a big-time league with fan support growing nationwide every year.  The fact is that Tulsa COULD have capitalized on this if some of the private money in town had shown some much needed "vision".  

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by bacjz00

Joe, I think Ruf makes some educated and well informed points and I'm pretty sure his posts deserve a little more than your sarcastic, uninformed spite.  Tulsa spoke loud and proud when it came to professional soccer, even as recently as a few years ago when the exhibition game came here.  While it may not be your cup of tea, you clearly don't represent all of Tulsa on this matter...Tulsa did that for itself by showing up in big numbers.  

It's just too bad that most of the pro soccer fans in this city don't have ties to BIG money or this would have been a done deal 10 years ago.  And for those who wonder why Tulsa didn't pass the original proposal for the soccer stadium?  We had no GUARANTEE for a pro franchise, only a handshake and it was not publicized very widely during that first vote.  

I'm not sure most Tulsans realize what they were passing up when they voted it down in '97. MLS has become a big-time league with fan support growing nationwide every year.  The fact is that Tulsa COULD have capitalized on this if some of the private money in town had shown some much needed "vision".  

Oh, I hear what you're sayin', but you have to understand that Ruf and I go WAAAY back on this forum on this topic. I know it's a source of frustration to him that he lost the argument so soundly [] but you're right, he's a bright guy and on top of that, a good sport for coming back around so often to trade some good-natured barbs.

[USRufnex]

Hmmm.  AJ, how exactly did I lose this argument "so soundly?"
Is there something you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Go Drillers. If I ever win the big powerball lottery I want to buy the team and change nothing.

Are these not your words and is the person quoted not you?

[USRufnex]

Sorry JDB, managed to get sidetracked once again... not very hard to do, actually.

The soccer stadium was not supposed to be the focal point of this development when it was first proposed... just an anchor for the real estate people who thought they were going to be getting into the sports business...

I think some perspective needs to be presented... and luckily RM posted a TW article that offers some insight... despite Dave Sittler's incorrect use of the term "soccer-only stadium"...

Hope is alive for futbol fans
By DAVE SITTLER World Sports Writer
6/11/2006
Last November, then-Mayor Bill LaFortune confirmed that an MLS franchise might relocate to Tulsa. Sources later confirmed that owners of the D.C. United franchise had a serious interest in putting a team in T-Town.

But the plan was shelved because of the city's lack of a soccer-only stadium, and the unwillingness of local investors to get involved.

Global Development Partners = "owners of the D.C. United franchise."

Unwillingness of local investors = the perspective of those folks who'd rather pay Vancouver architect Bing Thom, not once but TWICE, to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, than step up to the plate as owner-investors for an MLS team in Tulsa.

One of Global Development Partners' divisions was going to be a sports management division and Major League Soccer's D.C. United was their first purchase in summer 2005... an MLS team for Tulsa the next winter would have been their second purchase.  If everything went according to plan, Global would own sports teams in DC and Tulsa and would be building stadium/mixed use projects in DC, Tulsa, Richmond, Univ of Central Florida in Orlando, and Milwaukee...

If their original plans to own/operate (or partially own/operate) a Tulsa soccer team had gone as planned, GDP would have been the landlord for their own team at a stadium they would themselves operate... and it would be in their interests to make that stadium as "multi-use" as possible...

But here's what Global Development Partners, Major League Soccer, Mitch Adwon, and the Tulsa World do not want you to know...

Mum's the word on exactly why GDP's purchase of D.C. United fell through in January 2006, almost 6 months after it was announced.  And, by proxy... GDP's Tulsa plans fell through as well...    

Everyone was very tight-lipped about it; but the Washington Post reported last spring that a D.C. investor was suing GDP and claimed in the lawsuit that Major League Soccer will never approve ownership by a group involving Timothy Kissler or William Lauterbach.

If this is true, then it's entirely possible the league took a closer look at GDP's actual financial assets and balked at the deal... the full facts would need to be hidden because it could jeopardize GDP's other projects and also embarrass Major League Soccer and Colorado billionaire Phil Anschutz/Anschutz Entertainment Group (who'd highly publicized Global's $26M purchase of DC and trumpeted the group's ability to get the team its soccer  stadium/mixed use project in Anacostia/Poplar Point).

There's been no news at all on their project for Howard Road at Anacostia... despite its presence on GDP's website.

So, instead of owning/operating their own stadium for their own team in Tulsa, GDP will be negotiating with the Drillers... hard to say what will eventually happen...

But GDP now needs the "east end" project to go through with/without a baseball stadium... the cost of the minor league ballpark is completely dwarfed by the cost of the entire project (based on a similar project in Richmond's  estimated costs from 2005, I'd bet we're talking over half a billion dollars here... almost as expensive as The Channels).  So it ain't gonna be like any previous Tulsa TIF district...

I'm wondering if this is going to be one of those "if he's in, I'm in... if they're in, we're in..." projects.  Could be a house of cards but... what'd AOX call him-- er, uh... Mitch-the-***** may be the glue that holds it together...

And the results may influence whether a group in Milwaukee trying to get a mixed-use/soccer stadium built there (using GDP) see their efforts succeed -- as  they already have committed local investors, unlike Tulsa...

Oh, and JDB... I couldn't actually afford EE, just the adjacent areas... compare to DESCO, rinse, repeat... anything I left out?  []

[jdb]

Dude, all I can remember is a blinding bright light and then things went black.

I'll backtrack in the morning, jdb