McBirney Mansion

[pmcalk]

I am having a hard time seeing from the picture, but will there be any changes to the actual mansion itself?  The addition--is it attached or unattached to the mansion?

Since the McBirney Mansion isn't HP zoned, will the TPC have any say anyway (other than perhaps expressing their opinion)?

[tulsa1603]

OK, i will clarify my concern:  Think of Boston Avenue Methodist Church, then think of the additions that have been made to the east side over the last few years...Close but no cigar.  I can't tell much from that drawing, so I will keep my mind open until hearing more...I just know that usually, when I hear that a great house or building is going to recieve an addition and "renovation", it's not usually a good thing.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Here is the proposal. This is the view from Riverside Drive with the mansion on the far right

Can you tell us the name of the developer?  Have they undertaken a project like this before?

[carltonplace]

What I have been told is that the mansion will be restored and updated. It has what they consider to be major problems (to them problems, to me old house) that must be corrected to continue to operate as a B&B.

Their plan as I understand it.
Remove the slate roof, and disperse the slate accross the entire project with new slate that is as close a match as possible.
Remove the old boiler and update
Internalize the exposed electrical conduit.
Combine some rooms in the mansion into bigger meeting rooms
A small dining room will be in the mansion
Add a Skywalk to the mansion that will connect to the new construction
Find clinker brick for the new construction that closely matches the mansion exterior
Build underground parking with ingress and egress from Riverside, and a hot tub and pool next to the existing grotto.

No zoning concerns other than the existing residential zoning, and you're right there is no HP overlay. The mansion itself is registered, but not protected. They could certainly tear it down if it suited them.

[TheArtist]

Something that concerns me in that list is the "combine some rooms in the mansion into bigger meeting rooms"

1. I would hope they would keep the historic integrity of the mansion as much as possible, reconfiguring rooms seems rather drastic.  Isnt this home considered "historic"?  Changing the floor plan and ripping out walls doesn't seem at all right.  If its the basement they are talking about, I dont think thats so important.  But the rest of the house should remain in the layout it is with perhaps historically accurate remodel and repair as needed. I like it beeing an old mansion, that means old feeling rooms, not clean, antiseptic, meeting rooms.

2.  I like being able to tour the old home. Meeting rooms don't sound like something that anyone would want to, or be able to, tour. What kind of lighting, walls, trim, furniture would be in these meeting rooms? Would they fit the feel of the mansion or be like modern meeting rooms essentially gutting those parts of the home? If they are going to have meeting rooms in the home, that makes it seem as if its not really going to BE as a home anymore.  It makes it seem as if the rooms will not be for people to stay in or even tour.  They will just be using the home as a shell, stripping it of its character, charm, and historical value.

I remember working in the home while it was being spruced up and remodeled for the home tour.  It was so interesting to see the quality of construction. To see how people lived back then and how the home was made. I remember the twisting, quirky, little stairwell that was for the servants.  Hearing one of the carpenters hollering at his buddies to come look at a door he was working on, on the third floor.  He was all agasp at the fact that the whole door was one solid piece of wood, said it would be practically impossible to even find a tree that you could get a piece of wood that big from anymore. I remember looking out the attic window and marveling at the size of the pieces of slate on that roof. If they are planning on using that size and weight of slate on the new building it may have to be cusom cut, they were probably double the size and thickness of the slate you find today. It was close to an inch thick, thats STONE covering that roof.  

This was taken from the US Department of Interiors National Historic Registry website on which the Mc Birney Mansion is listed.

"Lastly, a property is evaluated for its integrity: the authenticity of physical characteristics from which properties obtain their significance. When properties retain historic material and form, they are able to convey their association with events, people, and designs from the past. All buildings change over time. Changes do not necessarily mean that a building is not eligible; but, if it has radical changes, it may no longer retain enough historic fabric, and may not be eligible for the National Register. Historic integrity is the composite of seven qualities: location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling and association."

As I have mentioned before.  I have toured many historic homes around the country.  It was always a horrible shame when you ran into one that had had some drastic changes or bad remodel done to them.  Many times it was extremely costly to bring the home back to its original state. You would hear the tour guide tell the story of how something was destroyed or so changed and everyone would gasp and comment at how horrible it was, how could someone be so short sighted and stupid to do such a thing.  

I hope that some day our children aren't shaking their heads and wondering how we could let something go wrong with this historic home.

This is one of the biggest and most significant of the old mansions in Tulsa.  I can only think of two or three other homes of this scale, including Philbrook.  When are we going to relize that these things are important.  Especially one thats a leading example of a particular period in the history of our city.

[pmcalk]

Tomorrow, at 11am, the Tulsa Preservation Commission will be hearing a presentation regarding the McBirney Mansion.

[TheArtist]

Ugh, and I have to work.

[Kenosha]

quote: No zoning concerns other than the existing residential zoning, and you're right there is no HP overlay. The mansion itself is registered, but not protected. They could certainly tear it down if it suited them.

None of that is true...it's just not.


1. the TPC won't approve this, and the city has the power to deny because they have a Preservation Easement on the property, including the exterior and grounds.

2. the Preservation Easement is held both by the city (TPC) and the State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO), meaning they would have to satisfy Melvena Heisch and Catherine Montgomery's concerns as well as the TPC's.  Good luck with that.

3. Basically, even if the TPC did approve it...there is no way in HELL SHPO will.

4. Not enough room for additional parking.

5. Did I mention no freaking way?

6. The use is limited to a Bed and Breakfast which is defined as a residential use with fewer than x number of guest quarters.  There can be no full service restaurant on site with this use.  Again, there is no place for additional parking without disturbing the grounds, which as I said before, is for all intents and purposes, off limits.

[pmcalk]

Wow--I didn't know there was a preservation easement.  You're right--that's a whole different ball game.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

quote: No zoning concerns other than the existing residential zoning, and you're right there is no HP overlay. The mansion itself is registered, but not protected. They could certainly tear it down if it suited them.

None of that is true...it's just not.


1. the TPC won't approve this, and the city has the power to deny because they have a Preservation Easement on the property, including the exterior and grounds.

2. the Preservation Easement is held both by the city (TPC) and the State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO), meaning they would have to satisfy Melvena Heisch and Catherine Montgomery's concerns as well as the TPC's.  Good luck with that.

3. Basically, even if the TPC did approve it...there is no way in HELL SHPO will.

4. Not enough room for additional parking.

5. Did I mention no freaking way?

6. The use is limited to a Bed and Breakfast which is defined as a residential use with fewer than x number of guest quarters.  There can be no full service restaurant on site with this use.  Again, there is no place for additional parking without disturbing the grounds, which as I said before, is for all intents and purposes, off limits.

I had no idea about the preservation easement.

The developer's parking plan is to bury the main parking under the hotel, with overflow parking behind the mansion. No telling what digging a huge hole would do to the spring.

[Kenosha]

Update...apparently, while the city does hold a preservation easement, it is ultimately up to the mayor how that is enforced...so while the TPC is the body that exists to further the causes of preservation in Tulsa by ordinance, it does not necessarily have a say in this case because the easement does not specifically mention the Tulsa Preservation Commission, just the City of Tulsa.

The rest holds true. The State (shpo) must still sign off on the proposal.

[TheArtist]

I don't mind the hotel part, especially if the parking is mostly underneath. The roofing tile matter, I am wary of. Would depend on how well the new tile matches the old in size and quality. The reconfiguring of the rooms in the mansion, I don't like at all.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I don't mind the hotel part, especially if the parking is mostly underneath. The roofing tile matter, I am wary of. Would depend on how well the new tile matches the old in size and quality. The reconfiguring of the rooms in the mansion, I don't like at all.

The roofing material is thick slate.  Still very much available, though quite expensive.

[TheArtist]

I figured it would cost them a pretty penny or two if they were going to do it right. And if thats so it leads me to believe they are willing to spend money on other details as well helping to make the hotel a quality match for the mansion.

[carltonplace]

I'm afraid that if they start digging around on the property they could disrupt the natural spring which has historic significance to Tulsa.