McBirney Mansion

[carltonplace]

Urban Tulsa Article: Read the Article

[citizen of the world]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Urban Tulsa Article: Read the Article

Here's an article in today's (Dec. 27) Tulsa World:

Mansion to Change

This project has great potential for Tulsa.  It should provide a very positive boost for Tulsa's Arkansas River development, downtown revitalization, the preservation of the McBirney Mansion itself and enhancement of the Riverview neighborhood.  Now they just need to scrape or remodel the rest of the run down properties down there (including the hideous modernist hunk of junk 'opera house' designed by Bruce Goff) and the place would really be special. Let's get on board with this project and help make Riverview shine again.

[carltonplace]

I have to disagree with you on the Spotlight theater citizen. The structure is not modern; it's Deco and it's an important piece of Tulsa's history. First as a home/music studio and now as the host of the longest running Vaudevillian show in the US.

Please see the Riverview Website walking tour for details: Riverview West Walking Tour

I'm also not certain which other rundown structures you are referring to. The area to the northwest of 15th St on Riverside Drive has some great old brownstones and some very attractive homes. Corner of Denver and Riverside is a different story.

[carltonplace]

KTUL interviewed interested parties today. Should be a segment on tonight's news

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

I have to disagree with you on the Spotlight theater citizen. The structure is not modern; it's Deco and it's an important piece of Tulsa's history. First as a home/music studio and now as the host of the longest running Vaudevillian show in the US.

Ditto ^

Don't be talkin' bout bulldozing a Deco landmark.

[Bledsoe]

After reflecting on this matter all day, I have come to the conclusion that this is a stake in the heart of a historic neighborhood.  This is a commercial development in the heart of a residential area- plain and simple.  It will permanently destroy the residential character of the area and will accelerate that tearing down of historic homes for commercial activity.  It is classic "spot" zoning.  At the time when the near downtown neighborhoods have limited desirable residential areas--this 80 suite hotel with restaurant is in the wrong place in every way.  It will also potentially cause the wrong kind of commerical development on the east bank on Riverside Dr.--a bad bad bad idea for people who love the park with the exception of the Bates promenade plan.

With acres of commerically zoned land only a few hundred yards away--why not there?   From an historical persepctive--it also appears to nearly destory the Washington Irving Camp site.  I though this was protected from the State and as a condition for granting the B&B status for the original zoning change for the mansion.

If it were residential condos, I might have a different opinion.  There is a cry for people to live in and near downtown.  This will likely destroy the one near-town neighborhood that still has potenital.

You have to look at the larger pciture--not the development itself, but what will happen to nearby property.  Would you want to live next door to a full  service "boutique" hotel--with all the parking and traffic.  There also appears to be no street infrastructure to handle this intense development.

[OurTulsa]

If they do this right a hotel could be a great asset to that neighborhood and our City.  Sure it will be a more intense use but if automobile access is primarily limited to Riverside Dr. I don't see how this use will significantly increase traffic.  The proposed additions do not appear to tower over neighbors.  While this is a commercial use of the property it's not one that would destroy the residential integrity of the existing neighborhood, they've committed to extending the architectural quality and it appears to a large extend the scale as well.  

It may be spot zoning but so what some of the more pleasant neighborhoods that I've visited in other enjoyable cities would be crucified by our current zoning ordinance for spot zoning, parking shortages, setback violations,...  

I'm sure that property values are going to plummet next to a 5-star boutique hotel, I'm sure housing demand will die around this site...in the same manner that it did around our world class art museum - Philbrook.  Isn't there an empty lot on the corner of 27th/Peoria on the market right now for ohhh... $430K? - and that is the primary vehicle entrance to the Philbrook on an arterial.  Yea, property values sure are hurting there.  

As with many things, it's all in how it's done.  If the hotel's orientation and relation to the surrounding hood is offensive, if it's grounds are bleak, if it over accommodates the auto then it will fail as a facility in the long run and be a blight on the area however if it is done in such a manner as to demote the automobile's dominance over the site and build complementary to the hood I have no doubt in my mind this hotel will be an asset.

I look for the establishment of a complimentary Riverside Promenade in front of a grand street entrance to compliment the river park on the east side of the street.  Would love to see a > 10' sidewalk aligned with occassional trees and 'patric' street lighting to set the standard for future development or enhancement north and south of the site.

I don't see this hotel necessarily paving the way for future large scale commercial development.  Traffic counts don't support that type of development.  This is a special property that appears to be well suited for what the group proposes.

[TheArtist]

^ I agree.  Plus I like the Spotlight Theater and wish it the best. Perhaps having a hotel next door will give it a bit of new life.  If there is anything that I would like to see removed in the area its that 50s style building adjacent to the McBirney Manison, that IMO has done more harm to the feel and integrity of the neighborhood than this hotel will.  I have been to many old mansions that are bed and breakfasts and old historic neighborhoods where there are small botique hotels like the one they are wanting to put in here.  They fit in fine with the neighborhood if they are done with the right look and scale. I think this development will be the start of something great for the whole area. ( I am still worried though about what their plans are for the inside of the mansion. I hope that people will still be able to go through it like they do Philbrook, Harwelden, Tulsa Historical Society, etc.)

[Rico]

Originally posted by the Artist.

quote:

I hope that people will still be able to go through it like they do Philbrook, Harwelden, Tulsa Historical Society, etc.)

Going through it may be a different kind of feel if this gains approval....... Imagine Harwelden if they knocked out a few walls and changed some of the woodwork....!

To me; "If it is done right" means.. Hands Off The Interior... You need different shaped rooms...? Place them in the add on..

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by Bledsoe

After reflecting on this matter all day, I have come to the conclusion that this is a stake in the heart of a historic neighborhood.  This is a commercial development in the heart of a residential area- plain and simple.

With acres of commerically zoned land only a few hundred yards away--why not there?.

This tired notion that commerce can never be an integral part of a "neighborhood" (which Boomers seem to think can only consist of isolated - even gated - residential enclaves), is what has created the car culture you seem so worried about.

I'm not saying there aren't legitimate concerns about scale and traffic, but perpetuating the car culture of segregated "zones" will only make the problem worse.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

quote:Originally posted by Bledsoe

After reflecting on this matter all day, I have come to the conclusion that this is a stake in the heart of a historic neighborhood.  This is a commercial development in the heart of a residential area- plain and simple.

With acres of commerically zoned land only a few hundred yards away--why not there?.

This tired notion that commerce can never be an integral part of a "neighborhood" (which Boomers seem to think can only consist of isolated - even gated - residential enclaves), is what has created the car culture you seem so worried about.

I'm not saying there aren't legitimate concerns about scale and traffic, but perpetuating the car culture of segregated "zones" will only make the problem worse.

^ Right On!  Perhaps its because there aren't really any good examples of that mixture of living and commerce in Tulsa anymore, especially of the neighborhood looking type. Its a joy to walk through and live in an area that looks like, and is, a neighborhood but has businesses, shops, galleries, cafes, etc. mixed in. Look and you will notice you often find those types of areas in those "Most desirable places to live" places and places where you vacation. Hmmm... Get a clue Tulsa?

[akupetsky]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

^ I agree.  Plus I like the Spotlight Theater and wish it the best. Perhaps having a hotel next door will give it a bit of new life.  If there is anything that I would like to see removed in the area its that 50s style building adjacent to the McBirney Manison, that IMO has done more harm to the feel and integrity of the neighborhood than this hotel will.  I have been to many old mansions that are bed and breakfasts and old historic neighborhoods where there are small botique hotels like the one they are wanting to put in here.  They fit in fine with the neighborhood if they are done with the right look and scale. I think this development will be the start of something great for the whole area. ( I am still worried though about what their plans are for the inside of the mansion. I hope that people will still be able to go through it like they do Philbrook, Harwelden, Tulsa Historical Society, etc.)

Forgive me, but I find it odd that you would be concerned with the interior, but dismiss the fact that they are adding 100,000 square feet to the building--almost a 10X increase in size, virutally elimination the entire grounds, adding parking, restaurants, spas, etc....  That's kind of like giving someone a sex change operation, but keeping the haircut the same.  This was once the home; with these additions, it will no longer look anything like that.

I don't believe the arguments against segregated uses is apt in this circumstance.  We want mixed uses to allow residents to walk to stores, schools, restaurants, etc..., and be less dependent on cars.  Why would a resident walk to a hotel?  What would they need with a hotel?  All this will bring is 80 out-of-towners, with their cars, parking in the neighborhood.

I am not sure what my bottom line position is on this.  But lets be realistic about the arguments:  It will completely transform a historic building into something entirely different, and it will bring a hotel to an otherwize residential neighborhood.

[akupetsky]

The analogy to Philbrook doesn't hold much water, either.  Who wouldn't want to live next to a museum, operating during the day only, with beautiful gardens, landscaped lawns, and waterfountains for all to enjoy?  Compare that to a 80-room hotel.  Big difference.

[SXSW]

I say leave the McBirney Mansion the way it is, but remodel the interior and make it a nicer bed & breakfast.  A small addition is fine but not what they're proposing.  That great lawn that slopes down toward the river is great for wedding receptions and events, it would be a shame to lose that.  And I agree, anything large would ruin the residential character of Riverview.  There are other places in that area closer to Uptown with better river views that they could build a nice new boutique hotel.

[citizen of the world]

Did not know Starlight Theater was 'Deco' or significant historically.  It IS ugly and in need of repair.  And there's insufficient parking at the Starlight - patrons park all over the neighborhood.  The hotel will be required to have sufficient onsite parking so the guests (or valet drivers) won't be parking any cars on the neighborhood streets.  

But the Starlight isn't the worst thing in Riverview.  Look at the 1940's run-down cinder block apartment houses or even the clapboard townhouses that stand about 30 yards to the north of the mansion on the same city block!

It would be nice if the mansion could support itself financially but it's apparently not feasible.  A luxury boutique hotel should help the neighborhood and much more beyond that.  I might even move to Riverview if the hotel is approved.  Anyone thinking of selling?