Civic Center Plaza

[Hometown]

There was a story in the Tulsa World the other day about a new sign that had been added to the Central Library.  I had some business in the County Courthouse building so I stopped and took a look across the plaza at the Library’s new eye-catching purple sign.  It certainly stands out.

It made me stop and think about the plaza.  I remember when it was new back in the 1960s.  The plaza looks a little time worn now.

Our Civic Center Plaza represents Modern architecture.  Modernism is a multifaceted school of architecture that held sway in architecture from the 1930s to through the 1970s.  Tulsa has some great examples of Modernism.

When you think Tulsa and Modernism – think Brasilia, the celebrated Modern capital of Brazil.

Because so many of us lived through at least part of the era of Modernism it is hard for us to think of its architecture as historic.  And preservationists will tell you that it is the most recent historic buildings that are often the least valued and protected.  

We now live in an era called Post-Modernism.  The things that we make now have a Post-Modern look.  The Modern esthetic is now a matter of history.

We are about to remodel our Civic Center and it is inescapable that the changes will have a Post-Modern look.  Slowly but deliberately we chip away at Modern Tulsa.  Consider the many Modern residences that have been remodeled into mediocrity.  Reflect on our loss when architect designed 1950s Modern Mayo Meadows Shopping Center is bulldozed.  Soon our classic 1960s Modern Civic Center will be unalterably changed.  Its design integrity lost.

If we were smart we would identify the original plans for the Civic Center and endeavor to restore the entire Civic Center Plaza area to its original design.

[Conan71]

My earliest memories of the square were when I'd go down to the courthouse with my Dad when he needed to catch up on paperwork on the weekends in the early '70's.  Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, the first Mayfest was actually on the square.

I've never found the design nor execution of it to have been all that attractive.  I guess it's a historic part of the city, but I just never found it to have a "wow" factor to it.

[Renaissance]

Counter-proposition: A given aesthetic is not worth preserving simply because it occurred.  

Consider Boston: the most preservationist city in the country wants to ditch their modernist city hall.  http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-12-12T174922Z_01_N12313991_RTRIDST_0_BOSTON-CITYHALL.XML  Simply put, it's ugly.  

I think, unfortunately, the same can be said about Civic Plaza.  It's practically a blight on downtown.  Now, much of this comes from neglect, and we're stuck with what we have, but when it comes to redesign, I'd say it's better to go with contemporary aesthetics than remain mired in an architectural movement that many regard to have been a failure.  I'll grant the genius of Mies van der Rohe, but his many "Modernist" imitators simply produce generic, unattractive structures.  I don't see what's worth preserving about these unremarkable (read: ugly) works.  They have their place in history, but what I'd rather preserve, and return to, is the aesthetic that came before the ugly, drab, green-and-gray boxes.  That's true Tulsa.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

There was a story in the Tulsa World the other day about a new sign that had been added to the Central Library.  I had some business in the County Courthouse building so I stopped and took a look across the plaza at the Library’s new eye-catching purple sign.  It certainly stands out.

It made me stop and think about the plaza.  I remember when it was new back in the 1960s.  The plaza looks a little time worn now.

Our Civic Center Plaza represents Modern architecture.  Modernism is a multifaceted school of architecture that held sway in architecture from the 1930s to through the 1970s.  Tulsa has some great examples of Modernism.

When you think Tulsa and Modernism – think Brasilia, the celebrated Modern capital of Brazil.

Because so many of us lived through at least part of the era of Modernism it is hard for us to think of its architecture as historic.  And preservationists will tell you that it is the most recent historic buildings that are often the least valued and protected.  

We now live in an era called Post-Modernism.  The things that we make now have a Post-Modern look.  The Modern esthetic is now a matter of history.

We are about to remodel our Civic Center and it is inescapable that the changes will have a Post-Modern look.  Slowly but deliberately we chip away at Modern Tulsa.  Consider the many Modern residences that have been remodeled into mediocrity.  Reflect on our loss when architect designed 1950s Modern Mayo Meadows Shopping Center is bulldozed.  Soon our classic 1960s Modern Civic Center will be unalterably changed.  Its design integrity lost.

If we were smart we would identify the original plans for the Civic Center and endeavor to restore the entire Civic Center Plaza area to its original design.

My thoughts exactly, Hometown, when I saw the article and picture of the new Library sign in the paper.  To me, the new sign just doesn't "fit in" with the mid 20th century design of the library and the plaza.  I think it looks like a bad 1980's redo of a 1920's facade.  I think the Library should have just saved their money.
The fountains and water features of the plaza dried up several years ago, do to maintenance and water leak problems into the parking structures below.

[Daniel Wright]

The plaza not only looks bad it smells bad too.  It seems to function as a homeles camp on most days.  Last summer I had to pay a visit to the court house.  The zoo's peguin statue which I assume the city paid a large amount for was sitting in a puddle of green slimy water in one of the disused fountains.  
I am 28 and cannot remember the fountains ever being on?  The plaza is not a waste of space, but if we are ever going to bring downtown back to life there needs to be some serious changes.  For one the homeless problem needs to be addressed. The day center and the other missions downtown may have good intentions at heart but who wants to go to the library downtown and have to use the same bathrooms and facilities that someone who has not showered in weeks has just used.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown


When you think Tulsa and Modernism – think Brasilia, the celebrated Modern capital of Brazil.

I understand what you are saying, and I think that many modern buildings are often dismissed as ugly when they are simply looking a little tired.  But to me, the plaza has very little character or style to begin with, AnD it's looking very tired.  It looks and feels like a parking garage.  Even if it were rejuvenated, with the fountains working, etc., it still offers little reason for a pedestrian to spend time there, except as a pathway from one building to the other.  In fact, in winter, when I have had to walk from the City Council building to the Courthouse, I find the distance rather annoying and pointless.  The only building on the plaza that I think is cool is the City Council Building with it's concrete floating above a glass clerestory.  The Library could also be re-touched to update...and I agree about that new sign.  It doesn't fit at all.  City Hall is an eyesore, as is the entire county courthouse complex.

Comparing this to Brasilia is not exactly fair.  BRasilia is an entire city, and much of it is beloved for the singular buildings it produced, but in architecture school, we were taught that from an urban planning standpoint, it lacks pedestrian quality space - there are vast swaths of land between all the buildings.  In fact it's a glaring example of what went wrong in urban planning during the middle of the 20th century.

someone at one poitn suggested doing the solar canopy over the plaza, and starting a farmer's market type thing there...I can see that, maybe.  But something about the plaza as it stands is just lacking.

[carltonplace]

For Pete's sake let's put in some water in the fountains and put some green on the concrete and by all means Up with Trees.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

For Pete's sake let's put in some water in the fountains and put some green on the concrete and by all means Up with Trees.

Easier said than done.

The amount of water to fill those pools weighs too much for the 35 year old concrete can support.

The planter boxes are poorly designed to drain and are too shallow and that makes the soil temperature too hot in the summer.

The entire area needs a makeover.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel Wright

The plaza not only looks bad it smells bad too.  It seems to function as a homeles camp on most days.  Last summer I had to pay a visit to the court house.  The zoo's peguin statue which I assume the city paid a large amount for was sitting in a puddle of green slimy water in one of the disused fountains.  
I am 28 and cannot remember the fountains ever being on?  The plaza is not a waste of space, but if we are ever going to bring downtown back to life there needs to be some serious changes.  For one the homeless problem needs to be addressed. The day center and the other missions downtown may have good intentions at heart but who wants to go to the library downtown and have to use the same bathrooms and facilities that someone who has not showered in weeks has just used.

modern design was perhaps one of the worst movements ever perpetuated on this world.  bulldoze it for the sake of humanity.  i've often daydreamed about the controlled implosion of Civic Center.

[TheArtist]

I am a firm believer in keeping a building, or plaza, as the style it was intended.  Styles come, then become aged, then become retro and appreciated.    

However the point must be made that as with any style some buildings were just bad examples of that style in the first place.  It can become difficult then when the style has become old and unkept, to try and figure out what to do with the building. Does it need cleaning, upkeep, and or a retro make over, or was it just a lousy example in the first place?  

I despise it when people mix styles with a building intending to update it.  Its one thing to add the retro version of an update (which is fine) and quite another to add the "latest style" update (which is not good at all, especially when they both start looking shabby, then what do you do lol?).

The Civic Center Plaza could very well look good with a make over, bringing it back to looking new, combined with some retro additions that could make it even better than it was in the beginning.  I haven't really ventured down there to take at look at it to know if that would do any good.

But, the new library sign just looks like a tack-on, neither emulating or adding to the old style nor being a retro update.

I do remember seeing the original plans for the plaza and how we went for the cheap version, not really having the style reach its full potential.  This makes me worry about how our new arena will age.  We lost a most of the artistry and beauty, the reason we paid for a world class architect in the first place, when we decided we couldn't afford the original version. It was a work of art, a piece of sculpture and an arena, now its just an arena. Rather than an Icon that would last the ages, we are getting the, its nice now but not gonna age as well version.

In other words.  If you do it right the first time, all that is needed to keep a building attractive is to keep it well maintained.  If you do it half way, then in the future you will be faced with the,,, Do we do it right this time by maintaining and adding what should have been done in the first place or the retro version,,, or do you completely remodel it to a new style and either doing that half way or really spending the time and money to do it right.  

IMO its cheaper and easier to spend the extra money and do it right the first time.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

For Pete's sake let's put in some water in the fountains and put some green on the concrete and by all means Up with Trees.

Now yer talkin'.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

For Pete's sake let's put in some water in the fountains and put some green on the concrete and by all means Up with Trees.

Easier said than done.

The amount of water to fill those pools weighs too much for the 35 year old concrete can support.

The planter boxes are poorly designed to drain and are too shallow and that makes the soil temperature too hot in the summer.

The entire area needs a makeover.

Too bad the convention center re-do doesn't extend into civic center plaza.

[tim huntzinger]

We should move City Hall to a more modern building, implode the old City Hall, and make better use of that property.

What say moving CH to the 'Flashcube'?

[sgrizzle]

How about we implode the library (once it moves) and put a nice city hall there?

The post office/courthouse needs to become a museum/meeting room/learning place.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Daniel Wright

The plaza not only looks bad it smells bad too.  It seems to function as a homeles camp on most days.  Last summer I had to pay a visit to the court house.  The zoo's peguin statue which I assume the city paid a large amount for was sitting in a puddle of green slimy water in one of the disused fountains.  
I am 28 and cannot remember the fountains ever being on?  The plaza is not a waste of space, but if we are ever going to bring downtown back to life there needs to be some serious changes.  For one the homeless problem needs to be addressed. The day center and the other missions downtown may have good intentions at heart but who wants to go to the library downtown and have to use the same bathrooms and facilities that someone who has not showered in weeks has just used.

modern design was perhaps one of the worst movements ever perpetuated on this world.  bulldoze it for the sake of humanity.  i've often daydreamed about the controlled implosion of Civic Center.

Hey, where's your "homeless scum" comment?!?!?![]