Civic Center Plaza

[Conan71]

Lay-up concrete, poured in place concrete, and pea gravel veneer concrete give it an institutional feel and to me, doesn't look like much thought was given to aesthetics.  I just never considered that an attractive style.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by inteller
[modern design was perhaps one of the worst movements ever perpetuated on this world.  bulldoze it for the sake of humanity.  i've often daydreamed about the controlled implosion of Civic Center.

I feel the exact same way about 19th century Victorian architecture and design styles, but to "bulldoze it for the sake of humanity" is just plain stupid.

You are entitled to your opinion, but quite a lot of us out there are big fans of "modern design."  Modern design is/was all about new ideas, new methods, and new looks; not copying the past but creating new contemporary spaces for the future.  Modern design, be it international style, mid-twentieth century modern, or post-modern styles are every bit as important to architecture and design history as victorian, rococo, gothic, romanesque, etc.  Your opinion is just your personal taste, and to "bulldoze it" would be very shortsighted and regretted in the future.  Styles come and go and tastes change, but once a building is gone, it is gone forever.

[Hometown]

Steve is right.  Quality Modern buildings have their place in history and their fans.  Mid-Century Modern homes are enjoying a revival in interest.  Tulsa has quite a list of Modern structures worthy of preservation.

Modernism itself was about a belief in a better tomorrow.  Folks that lived through the 50s and 60s might remember the optimism about the future.  Modern buildings expressed that optimism.

I drove by the ORU campus today and I could almost see George Jetson and his flying car zooming into one of the towers there.  That campus and the Abundant Life building are so bad they are good.

I think TheArtist gave us a wonderful lead.  So there was an expensive version of Civic Center Plaza and a cheap version and Tulsa took the cheap version.  (Ask me if I’m surprised.)

I think we should look for the original “expensive” version of Civic Center Plaza and seek a name Architect to mesh it into the Civic Center Design and then build it.

While we are at it, let’s add some sculpture.  Maybe some Pop artists.  Oh what the heck, lobby-sized paintings too.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Steve is right.  Quality Modern buildings have their place in history and their fans.  Mid-Century Modern homes are enjoying a revival in interest.  Tulsa has quite a list of Modern structures worthy of preservation.

Modernism itself was about a belief in a better tomorrow.  Folks that lived through the 50s and 60s might remember the optimism about the future.  Modern buildings expressed that optimism.

I drove by the ORU campus today and I could almost see George Jetson and his flying car zooming into one of the towers there.  That campus and the Abundant Life building are so bad they are good.

I think TheArtist gave us a wonderful lead.  So there was an expensive version of Civic Center Plaza and a cheap version and Tulsa took the cheap version.  (Ask me if I’m surprised.)

I think we should look for the original “expensive” version of Civic Center Plaza and seek a name Architect to mesh it into the Civic Center Design and then build it.

While we are at it, let’s add some sculpture.  Maybe some Pop artists.  Oh what the heck, lobby-sized paintings too.

There is bad quality modernism, as well as bad quality "country French", "Tuscan", "Victorian", etc.  It is all about the quality of materials, construction and craftsmen used.
Modern design does not equate to poor quality.  Actually, modern design requires a higher level of competence and construction craftsmanship, because you must make exact measurements and pay attention to the hidden details; you can not hide sloppy construction technique behind slapped on crown or perimeter molding and unnecessary added-on frills.  The lack of ornamentation in modern design means you must get it right the first time, without the help of cosmetic cover ups.  To coin a phrase, less is more.

I think no one on this forum would argue that the Civic Center plaza needs attention; it has for years.  But I think any renovations should try to preserve the mid-twentieth century modern design of the original plaza.

[pmcalk]

One of my complaints about the Plaza is the parking location.  Granted, I always appreciate sticking the parking out of the way.  But in this case, they put the parking directly underneath the plaza, with entrances to all of the buildings from underground.  Most everyone will park, walk to their building, experiencing nothing but the cave-like, smelly, wet parking area underneath.  You really must go out of your way to walk through the plaza--find the steps & go up them, if you are even aware that the plaza is above you.  I go down there quite frequently, and sometimes forget the plaza is there.  Even the parking garage next to the civic center connects, not to the plaza, but to the underground parking.  What a great way to ensure that no one walks through a public area.  The only time you really see anyone around the area is on Monday morning, when the poor jury pool is waiting to go through the metal detector at the court house(after Monday, they enter the courthouse underground, as well).

[TheArtist]

^I always thought that whole configuration was rather strange. Its difficult to see and find where you are going, its ugly underneath the plaza, the plaza isn't kept up, course nobody sees it because they are wandering around underneath. I always get the feel that I am walking into some dark, back entrance, basement of the buildings, not a real entrance.  Just odd.  What were they thinking? Of course one could ask, what are they still thinking with that new entrance to the library.  Is there no one in charge of the cities public aesthetics?  Who is responsible for this kind of thing?

[cannon_fodder]

Artist - the concept is a neat one.  They were trying to get the feel of the classic Roman Forum.  Where the people came to do all their civic business, laws were made, judgments passed, and so on.  I really like the idea, but at this point is has turned into an ugly and rundown plaza that people avoid.  It certainly isnt the inviting pulbic center that people flock to, as they invisioned.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Artist - the concept is a neat one.  They were trying to get the feel of the classic Roman Forum.  Where the people came to do all their civic business, laws were made, judgments passed, and so on.  I really like the idea, but at this point is has turned into an ugly and rundown plaza that people avoid.  It certainly isnt the inviting pulbic center that people flock to, as they invisioned.

I agree, and think the plaza could be spruced up and look quite nice.  But most people dont see the plaza for as pmc said, you park under it then just go into the buildings from under the plaza and never see the plaza. The plaza can't be seen from the street while driving or when walking by on the sidewalks.

I think they should do 3 things.

1.  Repair and clean up the plaza and the buildings around it.

2.  Make it so that you don't park underneath (perhaps just employees and the like) and block those areas off from view. Also make it so that when you park in the garage you are lead to the plaza not underneath it.

3.  Add a water feature that shoots up or is tall enough to see from the street. People are attracted to water features and this would help people realize there is a plaza and be enticed to go up there. Have some benches around the fountain. Also put a couple of large, modern, sculptures in the plaza for added interest.

All of these things would help a great deal towards making it a living working plaza.




Also, I was wrong about the new library sign. I was under the impression that it was actually the entrance to the new library, that it was attached to the building. It is not and stands apart like its a piece of sculpture.  

However as I drove by I had the same bad feeling I always do about all the trees and shrubs between the library and the street.  It has never seemed right.  But who can complain about large nice trees?  Then I realized why it wasn't right.  Just as Philbrook, an italian villa has italian gardens, or an english cottage has english gardens, etc.  A minimalist, modern structure like the library should have simple minimalist landscaping around it.  As it is the hodgepoge "forest" of large trees and shrubs, clashes with and hides the library. Some simple grass, a well trimmed hedge or something along those lines would make that area flow and feel clean, crisp and open, matching the style of those buildings and the plaza.    

[Hometown]

I was thinking about TheArtist’s question.  Who is in charge of esthetics?  Then I remembered my experience getting a building permit in Oakland.  I replaced some windows in a condo and the condo board wanted a city permit and an inspection.

To obtain a permit I was required to bring a photograph of the replacement windows and also a photograph of the condominium building.  There were written guidelines for changes to existing buildings and there was a city employee who made a judgment call about how well I had followed the policy.  

The city actually had written guidelines that specified that the new windows had to be similar to the windows being replaced and that the addition had to mesh well with the original design.  I was surprised.

I imagine Tulsa has a similar process.  So the answer is that esthetic decisions are policy and the policy is enforced by a city employee through the permitting process.  I guess the real decision making all takes place in forming the policy.

Hey, by the way, I vote for keeping City Hall at Civic Center Plaza.  But the idea of consolidating city employees downtown and being more of an anchor tenant for downtown is a good ideal.  The State of Oklahoma should follow suit.

Anyway, there already is a nice synergy of people doing government business in the Civic Center Plaza area.  I was in the plaza today at lunch and the plaza is not bad.  It needs some serious maintenance and maybe some restoration work – possibly an update if it is done really well.  A lot of stuff has been added to the Convention Center area since the beginning.  Like the exhibit hall that crowds the Convention Center in back.  And as previously pointed out the underground parking is kind of a dank labyrinth.

There actually is a decent sculpture next to City Hall that looks like it might be original.  I think I remember it from the 60s.  But the plaque in the ground is missing.  A lot of the problems with the plaza are just simple housekeeping and maintenance.  Restore the fountains and landscape and clean like the dickens and tear out some bad additions.

Celebrate New Years Eve there as pmcalk suggested in another thread.

Put some tables out in good weather.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger
What say moving CH to the 'Flashcube'?

See? Another great idea first read here!

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I was thinking about TheArtist’s question.  Who is in charge of esthetics?  Then I remembered my experience getting a building permit in Oakland.  I replaced some windows in a condo and the condo board wanted a city permit and an inspection.

To obtain a permit I was required to bring a photograph of the replacement windows and also a photograph of the condominium building.  There were written guidelines for changes to existing buildings and there was a city employee who made a judgment call about how well I had followed the policy.  

The city actually had written guidelines that specified that the new windows had to be similar to the windows being replaced and that the addition had to mesh well with the original design.  I was surprised.

I imagine Tulsa has a similar process.  So the answer is that esthetic decisions are policy and the policy is enforced by a city employee through the permitting process.  I guess the real decision making all takes place in forming the policy.....

Having gone through the permit process numerous times in Tulsa, there is no person in charge of aesthetics.  They deal only with code, which deals with matters of life safety, fire protection, parking, etc.  There is zero aesthetic control from the city.  It doesn't matter what materials you use, as long as they are applied in a way that creates a complete structure that won't allow rain in, etc.. If you had done the condo window replacement here in Tulsa, all you would have had to do is file a permit, tell them what you were doing, provide some installation details, prove that the windows met egress requirements, and you could be on your way.  They wouldn't care if you were replacing original multi-paned steel casements with sheet glass vinyl sliding windows...Honestly, I prefer it this way, because I believe in the freedom of a private property owner to do what he wants (I'd just prefer that more property owners were educated on aesthetics!).  I can't even imagine the headache that would be involved in having to get approval on how your project looks?  I consider myself ot be a more than competent architect and designer, and having to prove my design to some city bureaucrat would probably be enough to drive me from the profession.  I can only imagine it being akin to going before the city to get a new house in a HP Zoning district, which can be a difficult process.

But sort of getting back to the root of that question...who decides the aesthetics when CITY built projects are going up?  On private projects there is an architect and there is a client, and they are the ones that work through the aesthetics...who decided the library needed a new sign, who designed it, who approved it?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Artist - the concept is a neat one.  They were trying to get the feel of the classic Roman Forum.  Where the people came to do all their civic business, laws were made, judgments passed, and so on.  I really like the idea, but at this point is has turned into an ugly and rundown plaza that people avoid.  It certainly isnt the inviting pulbic center that people flock to, as they invisioned.

Roman Forum? Ya gotta be kidding me.  Might have helped if they would have flown to Rome first. [}:)]

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown


I drove by the ORU campus today and I could almost see George Jetson and his flying car zooming into one of the towers there.  That campus and the Abundant Life building are so bad they are good.

I've heard ORU referred to countless times as: "Six Flags Over Jesus". []

[Hometown]

You know the umbrella shaped carousels on civic center plaza are really perfect for Mid-Century architecture.  I believe they are original.  The plaza offers a long deep view that terminates in the convention center.  All of the main structures on the plaza are decent examples of the period.  There were many important buildings and plazas of the time built with concrete finishes.  

I wasn’t kidding about cleaning.  The county court house building is grime covered.  In fact all the buildings look like they are due a good bath.  I’ve seen similar buildings cleaned and the results were striking.

The police building was added on to and the exhibit hall at the back of the convention center is an add-on.  The large circular parking building is new.  These additions could all go and the civic complex would be better for it.

I could see buried parking where the current parking structure is.  It really crowds and detracts from the convention center.

If the city is looking for retail space, parts of the underground parking might provide an area of development.  Because of other complaints here I think it would be good to look at restructuring the parking.

How about keeping executive and front offices at the current city hall and moving back offices elsewhere downtown?

A Claus Oldenburg sculpture on the plaza would be nice and I can see Andy Warhol’s Elvis portrait on a lobby wall at plaza level in City Hall.  

Imagine the shock and excitement when folks from the country encounter a giant pop sculpture on the plaza.  A trip to the heart of the city should leave you with a tale or two to tell.

In warmer months I could see groups of tables and seating for brown bag lunches.  

I’d like to see a regular police foot patrol in the civic center area.  

Hey, you know what?  This is an inexpensive fix.  I believe a Mid-Century Modern classic like our civic center complex will wear well if we don’t mess it up.

[TheArtist]

I actually think the idea of having the rest of the government offices move next door into the library is worth looking at.  Then We could build a great new Library not a new City Hall.