'Branson Landing'

[tim huntzinger]

PJ Lassek reports on 'Branson Landing' developers

Where on the west bank is this mythical development being considered?

Also, for all the talk of 'private enterprise,' why are tax breaks being considered?  Help me out, but did JGordon secure the tax breaks before putting in his thrice-mortgaged Riverwalk?

[tim huntzinger]

Wow! I suck!  No replies!

No wonder, there it is: 'between the 21st and 11th St Bridges.' Doh!

If Howell were interested in the welfare of Tulsa, maybe he should invest in the City, instead of the far-off environs of his Christian compound on lake Skiatook (get it, 'Cross'-timbers? Wink-wink!)

I for one am sick and tired of these private-public partnerships that are nothing more than handcrafted gimmes to some insider or another.  TIFFs are being abused by so-called free-marketers who want the benefits of being an investor without the risk.

Do not tell me about the nobility of the uber-wealthy investment class and how visionary they are when they cannot even open a hot dog stand without a tax break.

This line of policy - narrow tax breaks granted for private business - are bankrupting our nation.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

PJ Lassek reports on 'Branson Landing' developers

Where on the west bank is this mythical development being considered?

Also, for all the talk of 'private enterprise,' why are tax breaks being considered?  Help me out, but did JGordon secure the tax breaks before putting in his thrice-mortgaged Riverwalk?

It says in the article where he would like it to be. And we already have a thread that has talked about this.

[Kenosha]

[tim huntzinger]

A collection of articles on Tax Increment Financing (TIF)  from Heartland.org

[PonderInc]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

What I like are all the attractive, clean-cut, physically fit, upper-middle class, white people in the pictures.  (Oh how the streets will be full of them in this developer dreamscape!) But I wonder...where did they park their SUVs?  Because we all know that these suburban types don't walk (see River"walk" crossing for an example.)  Perhaps the SUVs are hidden out back with all the obese and/or darker-skinned folks...and all of their tatooed/pierced and/or goth children...and the hookers.

And for a place with no trash cans, there sure isn't much litter!

[SXSW]

^ I believe their SUV's are tucked away in a parking garage or underground.  Either way they are out of sight, which is better than how it is at Riverwalk.

[TheArtist]

No no no, Branson Landing isn't the SUV crowd, its the RV crowd. Should be pics of little old ladies wearing quirky vests and silly ear rings they find at craft shows. I know, because my parents have morphed into that crowd. []

[swake]

I've been paying attention to the Branson Landing people's project and I'm liking what I am hearing less and less.

I listened to the developer from Springfield on KFAQ and also Ron Howell (Cross Timbers and the other developer). I also read bates article in UT and I read the stuff in the World.

The development sounds good, mixed use, multi story. But not great, Branson Landing is anchored by Belk's and Bass Pro. Wow. Can we pay for a second Bass Pro in town so it will also fail to meet it's projections on revenue (and thus rent payments)? Belk's? There's one in Owasso and another being built at Tulsa Hills. Maybe that's upscale for Branson, but it's just another shopping center here.

Branson Landing got over $100 million in public funding, I don't feel like paying $100 million for things the quality of Belk's and Bass Pro. This is a strip mall with housing above the stores. And I don't like what Bates had to say about the lack of involvement between the project and the water.

And, finally, the killer, Ron Howell said something really interesting, That the city could not back both the East End and his project. What? You want people vote between The East End and giving money so a Belk's can be built on the river? How fast can I say go back to Branson and stay there?

A glorified discount store strip mall (Tulsa Hills?) on the water or a mixed use development and ballpark downtown. What's your vote? I also really don't even see them having the same clientele, but that's me.

[TheArtist]

It seems like people are saying he is building another Branson Landing here, same stuff and all. The developer specifically stated that it would not be another Branson Landing but would be something thats unique to Tulsa. Plus there is no way there is going to be another Bass Pro in town, especially over there.

[SXSW]

I like this setup and think it would work well along the river:


It reminds me of Washington Harbor in Georgetown.  Large plaza areas RIGHT ON THE WATER with shops/restaurants with outdoor seating opening out to this plaza.  On the west bank you could do this along the shoreline and then reroute Jackson Ave. behind the stores (with condos above) and have streetfront retail along that road as well.  The other side of the road could just be residential development.  

Maybe by deleting some of the retail component (like no department store) but keeping the condos and maybe a hotel would be better.  Then the East End and projects in Uptown could be more retail-oriented.  I like having it mixed-use but it doesn't need to be an outdoor mall like Branson Landing.  A few shops, yes, and lots of restaurants facing the water.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc


What I like are all the attractive, clean-cut, physically fit, upper-middle class, white people in the pictures.  (Oh how the streets will be full of them in this developer dreamscape!) But I wonder...where did they park their SUVs?  Because we all know that these suburban types don't walk (see River"walk" crossing for an example.)  Perhaps the SUVs are hidden out back with all the obese and/or darker-skinned folks...and all of their tatooed/pierced and/or goth children...and the hookers.

And for a place with no trash cans, there sure isn't much litter!

It's in branson. I think they were just aiming for their demographic. I don't see any trucker hats, camo, or "stars and bars." though.

I'm a fat suburban white guy, do I walk? I'm confused on the rules.

[PonderInc]

I know I'm a snob, but I swear, if there's one thing that Tulsa doesn't need it's another national chain.  No matter where it's located....but ESPECIALLY on the river or in/near downtown.

Our goal MUST be to differentiate ourselves from the generic offerings that can be found in any town or suburb in America.  No more Belk's, no more Bass Pro Shops, no more Chili's, or Kohl's, or Panera's, or Office Depots, or Applebee's, or whatever!  Drive up to Owasso.  They have one of everything.  Drive over to Stillwater.  They have one of everything.  Drive down to 71st and Mingo...yep, all of the same crap.

Sometimes I think we're so desperate for a date, that we'll sleep with anyone with a few bucks and a vague interest to "develop" something.  

Tulsa needs to stand up and decide what we want to be.  Another cookie-cutter retail outlet providing the same shopping opportunities available in the burbs?  Or something real and vital and unlike anywhere else in the region?

Relying on national chains to fill giant new developments demonstrates a complete lack of imagination.  Why do people go to Austin?  Because it's unlike anywhere else.  Guess what: nobody travels to Broken Arrow b/c it's a unique destination...b/c it's not.

I worry about the East End, b/c I think that allowing a single developer control over 45 acres of downtown will result in a homogenous development where everything old is demolished to build something new that looks sort of old (in a plastic fake way).  

I worry about river developments that rely on national chains to fill them.  Nobody is going to travel from Owasso to shop at a Belks on the river.  Why should they?  They've already got one.  Think about it.

[SXSW]

^ That is why I am reluctant to support any kind of mass retail area (like a Riverwalk) on the west bank.  I think more of a dense residential area with a handful of shops and restaurants is better than a "mall on the river".  And yes I worry about mega developments like the East End which will inevitably have chain restaurants/retail.  That's to be expected but I do hope it also includes a lot of local businesses (which downtown is almost exclusively made up of now) that opened up because of the traffic a few "high-end" chains could bring.  Things like a Barnes & Noble, Cheesecake Factory, California Pizza Kitchen, etc. are chains I wouldn't mind seeing but then lots of local places in between.  Notice Austin used to be known for its abundance of local places but on a recent trip there I saw quite a few new chains taking up shop in the downtown area.

[TheArtist]

^ I get both your points and agree that we need something on the river that will not be same ol same ol.  But, I think if the development is designed properly visually and structurally, with parking garages, living quarters, not spread out but more urban, some public spaces etc. that such a place, even if in the beginning it is mostly "chain" stores and restaurants, that it can evolve to be what we want.  Even the Riverwalk, though it has some chain places has local ones and I think any like place on the river in Tulsa would as well.  What you want is a space that is nice enough and designed so that if the "Belks" pull out at some time it is easily useable for other businesses.