Claim to ‘cure’ homosexuality

[aoxamaxoa]

^The article will be debunked by truthforefreedom in nothing flat...

[rwarn17588]

I think the proper term for Jeremy would be "Christianist."

Which, incidentally, was popularized by a conservative who is none too happy to see fundamentalists bullying people.

[Steve]

I skipped over most of the discussion in this thread because this topic seems to come up every 6 months or so and always decends into moronic, name calling posts.

As a gay man, these are my thoughts on "curing" homosexuality:
We will probably never scientifically know the answer to the "nature vs. nurture", genetic or learned behaviour question.  Why should anyone care?  The only possible reason is that if it is learned behavior, then people that condemn homosexuality on religious grounds could use that to further argue their point.  If you think homosexuality is a sin, fine, and live your own life accordingly; but you have no right to force your opinions on the lives of others that believe differently, through civil legislation or just plain verbal bashing.  I have known that I was "different" from about the age of 8, although I had no knowledge of human sexuality and such back then.  I have always considered myself gay since I fully understood what that meant, and I never wrestled with personal angst, indecision, and self-loathing that some gay adults seem to deal with.  And I was raised in a strict Roman Catholic family!  Go figure.

What CONSENTING ADULTS do in the privacy of their own homes is nobody's business but their own, and the US Supreme Court basically confirmed this a few years ago by striking down "crimes against nature" laws (sodomy laws) that outlawed consensual sex between same-sex partners.

I think the gay marriage question will become a non-issue within the next 15-20 years.  Most young people under 30 have no problem with homosexuality between consenting adults and feel gays should have the right to CIVIL marriage, with the same benefits has heterosexual marriage.  Marriage performed and sanctioned by a religious organization should always be the perogative of that denomination, IMO.

[NCTulsan]

Thank you, Steve, for your insightful and rational response.

My eyes continue to be opened every day to the ignorance and arrogance that comes from fellow church people on this topic.  As a gay Christian, I don't expect my church peers or family to fully understand, because I realize there is an underlying threat to their faith that they don't want to address.  That "threat" has to do with their reading of the Bible through a black-and-white, clear-cut lens.  However, I have come to realize that God's Word includes many areas of gray.  That is why He created us with rational minds .... so we can discern the gray in light of His greatest commandment to love one another as Christ has loved us.

As much as they may hate me (or profess to love me, but still wanting to change me), the only thing I can do is live my life and love them back.

Sorry for getting preachy, but it hits personal.

For people like truth4freedom, they don't want to hear that God gives us gray areas.  They don't want to hear that a boy may become a Christian at age 8, discover he is gay at age 10, pray for 20 years that God would change him, live during that time in self-loathing and depression with a feeling of no way out, then finally accept things at age 31 and seek a loving and monogamous relationship with another man, while all still having that relationship with the Lord (my story in a nutshell).  For truth4freedom's simple mind, it's too much to bear.

Personally, I think truth4freedom protests a little too much.   :^)

[ZX12Piglet]

Oh who cares if someone is gay, les, or bi.....that's their business NOT yours, so get over it and quit cutting into someone else's private affairs![V][V]

[deinstein]

What if you want your child to be gay?

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

What if you want your child to be gay?

You play them disco when they are in the womb.

[ZX12Piglet]

it wouldnt bother me none...not one bit! that's their choice and i'd accept it for who they are!

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

What if you want your child to be gay?

I have no children and I have never had a desire for children.  Some gay people do however, but I have never heard of any of my gay friends or acquaintences "wanting" their children to be gay.  I think any decent parent, gay or straight, would want their children to be happy and content with their lives, and their sexuality is not important.  Gay people (myself included) have no desire to "recruit" or spawn gay children.  Nature takes quite good care of that without any human intervention.

[PonderInc]

This thread reminds me of the lessons of psychology that teach us that moral arguments are made up AFTER the emotions have already passed judgement.  That is, you have an emotional response to something, and THEN you create a "rational argument" to support your reaction.  

This explains why neither side in this debate will ever be able to change the other side's mind through rational debate.  The "debate" has already taken place at the visceral level (gut feelings, snap judements, intuitions...and a lifetime of programming) and the only way people will change is when they experience something that forces them to re-evaluate from the inside out.  

Having said that, why "cure" homosexuality?  Why get rid of all the good-looking, stylish, witty guys on the planet?  Without these cultured afficianados to teach everyone else about the finer things in life, there'd be a lot more un-cultured rednecks...and everything served at restaruants would have to be cooked on a grill.[]  

Admit it...a lot of social conservatives sing Cole Porter songs...and their lives are more beautiful because of it.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

This thread reminds me of the lessons of psychology that teach us that moral arguments are made up AFTER the emotions have already passed judgement.  That is, you have an emotional response to something, and THEN you create a "rational argument" to support your reaction.  

This explains why neither side in this debate will ever be able to change the other side's mind through rational debate.  The "debate" has already taken place at the visceral level (gut feelings, snap judements, intuitions...and a lifetime of programming) and the only way people will change is when they experience something that forces them to re-evaluate from the inside out.  

Having said that, why "cure" homosexuality?  Why get rid of all the good-looking, stylish, witty guys on the planet?  Without these cultured afficianados to teach everyone else about the finer things in life, there'd be a lot more un-cultured rednecks...and everything served at restaruants would have to be cooked on a grill.[]  

Admit it...a lot of social conservatives sing Cole Porter songs...and their lives are more beautiful because of it.

I like that. But as in any generalization it didn't work for me (emotions/judgement). Can't remember if I had one of those life changing experiences. I was just as homophobic as any other jr. high school slug. Probably in college when exposed to higher forms of life. But it wasn't cataclysmic. Just over time realized the reality of "different strokes..." Began to see people in terms of their personality and behaviour and not their bed partners. I really feel bad for those who are imprisoned by such emotions.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc


Admit it...a lot of social conservatives sing Cole Porter songs...and their lives are more beautiful because of it.

Amen! And Lorenz Hart too.  Cole Porter and Lorenz Hart were two of the most sophisticated poets/lyricists the human race has ever seen.  The fact that they were both gay men is secondary to their works.

[TheArtist]

Speaking of oil industry and gays lol.  I think someone at TU should do a study about the rate of homosexuality, hermaphroditism, etc. in Sand Springs.  

I started noticing an unusual pattern a long time ago concerning the number of gay people from Sand Springs.  I know several people from there who are gay and one time while at a "show" a drag queen asked the audience how many people there were from Sand Springs.  Waaay too many people raised their hands for such a small town.  I would guess that if you were to split the audience into, out of towners, Tulsans, and people from Sand Springs, that the number of gay people from Sand Springs was around 1/3 the number of people from Tulsa.  One coincidence perhaps?  But then I started paying attention and asking people where they were from on different occasions and the same inordinate skew of gay people from Sand Springs pops up. Sand Springs 18,000 versus Tulsa at say 380,000.  My little brain is telling me something is up.

Then lets add onto this news article after news article, study after study showing how plastics and petrochemicals break down into types of female hormones in the environment.  Certain plastics have been banned in parts of Europe for just this reason.  Then studies showing that places where these chemicals are found in the environment correlate with more "gay" animals.  Parts of the florida everglades where the male alligators have smaller than usual "male parts" and are more interested in eachother than the females and scientists worry that the population may be affected. Some species of birds in Cali, etc. etc. And most importantly the studies in Europe on human exposures to these chemicals.

Female hormones from the environment are known to have an effect on the developing fetus. (it doesnt happen like that one christian group was saying because of guys drinking soy milk lol, soy does have female hormones in it but an adult male drinking it will not have any effect, [unless he is pregnant and we can save that for another discussion] they have the basic idea of cause and effect, just not the timing lol)

Soooo lets see,,,, Quite large number of gay people coming from one small town next to petrochemical refineries.  Hmmmmmm And where do they get their water from anyway? Perhaps some soil sample checks wouldn't hurt either lol.

Would make a great paper for some grad student I would say.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Speaking of oil industry and gays lol.  I think someone at TU should do a study about the rate of homosexuality, hermaphroditism, etc. in Sand Springs.  

I started noticing an unusual pattern a long time ago concerning the number of gay people from Sand Springs.  I know several people from there who are gay and one time while at a "show" a drag queen asked the audience how many people there were from Sand Springs.  Waaay too many people raised their hands for such a small town.  I would guess that if you were to split the audience into, out of towners, Tulsans, and people from Sand Springs, that the number of gay people from Sand Springs was around 1/3 the number of people from Tulsa.  One coincidence perhaps?  But then I started paying attention and asking people where they were from on different occasions and the same inordinate skew of gay people from Sand Springs pops up. Sand Springs 18,000 versus Tulsa at say 380,000.  My little brain is telling me something is up.

Then lets add onto this news article after news article, study after study showing how plastics and petrochemicals break down into types of female hormones in the environment.  Certain plastics have been banned in parts of Europe for just this reason.  Then studies showing that places where these chemicals are found in the environment correlate with more "gay" animals.  Parts of the florida everglades where the male alligators have smaller than usual "male parts" and are more interested in eachother than the females and scientists worry that the population may be affected. Some species of birds in Cali, etc. etc. And most importantly the studies in Europe on human exposures to these chemicals.

Female hormones from the environment are known to have an effect on the developing fetus. (it doesnt happen like that one christian group was saying because of guys drinking soy milk lol, soy does have female hormones in it but an adult male drinking it will not have any effect, [unless he is pregnant and we can save that for another discussion] they have the basic idea of cause and effect, just not the timing lol)

Soooo lets see,,,, Quite large number of gay people coming from one small town next to petrochemical refineries.  Hmmmmmm And where do they get their water from anyway? Perhaps some soil sample checks wouldn't hurt either lol.

Would make a great paper for some grad student I would say.

Honestly...
The first thing that comes to mind is, how many of these Sand Springs residents are native to the city(and thus affected in the womb)? Then how does that number compare to other suburban towns around the metro?(could be a result of the natural migration of population to burbs.) But lastly and most importantly, Sand Springs is not a predominantly Petrochemical dominated town. There is one plant, Baker Petrolite, that I know of that makes oil well blasting materials. It is predominantly a steel production & mining town.  The large steel plant next to the WalMart is the largest employer. Mineral mining is also big with all the limestone and sand in the area.

There water comes mostly from Shell Lake, an impound once considered for Tulsa water. No industrial plants near it or the creek.

Wouldn't be the thesis I would work on.[]

[rwarn17588]

I wouldn't use the refinery theory, either, mainly because the closest refinery is about eight miles east of Sand Springs. The prevailing winds wouldn't bring the air pollutants into Sand Springs, except for those very rare days it comes from the east.

If there is indeed a high ratio of gays in Sand Springs (and I'm not saying there are), it's more likely because it's an old community with a lot of cool fixer-upper houses and plenty of undeveloped land in nearby Osage County. My wife and I were astounded by the architecture I saw in The Line neighborhood not far from Sand Springs. I think creative types, as gays have a tendency to be, like older, distinctive homes instead of the bland subdivisions you typically see in south Tulsa.

That's my theory. Then again, I could be wrong.