Why do we "need" a 41st Street Bridge?

[PonderInc]

I keep reading about the "need" for a bridge over the river at 41st on this forum.  And, I'm left wondering...why?

Are we talking about another pedestrian bridge, or a bridge for automobiles?

I-44 crosses over the river at 51st, and there's a bridge at 21st.  This means that the furthest you could possibly be from a river crossing is 1.5 miles.  The only people who need to worry about an additional 1.5 miles are pedestrians...who can cross at 31st.

41st street is residential all the way from the River to Yale.  And anyone trying to get to all the shopping east of 41st and Yale would get there faster on I-44 anyway....no need to channel traffic onto one of the most beautiful streets in town (41st between Peoria and Lewis, specifically).  

Personally, I see a much greater need for pedestrian bridges over Riverside Drive than another bridge for cars over the river.  I would support additional pedestrian bridges over the river...but even then, I'm not sure that 41st is the most critical location for that.

Is there something I'm missing?

[robbyfoxxxx]

Need and want are two different things, I dont think that a new bridge is needed either.

[waterboy]

I would think the industrial areas to the West at 41st would enjoy the easier access to the East side. Why? Who knows. Lunch in Brookside? Shopping at Utica Square?

There may be some development ensue along the banks there but it would be at a high price. Most of that industrial land is being utilized. Most likely benefitted would be the service providers like Acme Wheel alignment that would suddenly be easy for East side to reach.

Would rather we replace the crumbling roads myself.

[TheArtist]

Ok I may be completely wrong about this, but here is why I would like a 41st bridge.  

Firstly, 41st is one of the few East West streets that runs for any consistent amount on the west side of Tulsa.  Plus there are a lot of new neighborhoods, the school, etc. on that street.  Having 41st connect from the east to the west would really give a much needed continuity of flow connecting east and west Tulsa.  

Second, Whenever I have to go to west Tulsa, to do a mural job, inevitably it seems to be in one of those new neighborhoods off of far west 41st.  As it is it is akward to get to and you have to go through some yucky looking areas to boot. It may just be me but the exits off I44 on the west side are confusing and many of the roads in that area, well I get lost a lot lol. I would so love to just go straight on through 41st. That drive would be just as easy and familiar as getting around most other places in Tulsa, and not make it seem as if you are having to go through some strange rigamarole to some place completely different, especially for us "navigationally challenged" people lol.  I was born and raised on the grid road plan, you get me off on some swoopy, curvy, twisty roads, exits and connections, I give up, go home, and curl up in a corner on the floor in the fetal postition for a few days.  

Third, I would like to see a west riverside drive some day and a 41st bridge would help in connecting that without having to get on and off the highway.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Ok I may be completely wrong about this, but here is why I would like a 41st bridge.  

Firstly, 41st is one of the few East West streets that runs for any consistent amount on the west side of Tulsa.  Plus there are a lot of new neighborhoods, the school, etc. on that street.  Having 41st connect from the east to the west would really give a much needed continuity of flow connecting east and west Tulsa.  

Second, Whenever I have to go to west Tulsa, to do a mural job, inevitably it seems to be in one of those new neighborhoods off of far west 41st.  As it is it is akward to get to and you have to go through some yucky looking areas to boot. It may just be me but the exits off I44 on the west side are confusing and many of the roads in that area, well I get lost a lot lol. I would so love to just go straight on through 41st. That drive would be just as easy and familiar as getting around most other places in Tulsa, and not make it seem as if you are having to go through some strange rigamarole to some place completely different, especially for us "navigationally challenged" people lol.  I was born and raised on the grid road plan, you get me off on some swoopy, curvy, twisty roads, exits and connections, I give up, go home, and curl up in a corner on the floor in the fetal postition for a few days.  

Third, I would like to see a west riverside drive some day and a 41st bridge would help in connecting that without having to get on and off the highway.

But why? Even if it is easier to travel West 41st, who will and why? When you get past 41st and Union heading west, within a mile the road confusingly curves into Southwest Boulevard, runs for a mile or so then ends at 33rd west ave. Most locals use 33rd to connect onto 44/75 at that point. So it would seem a bridge would make it easier for people on the East side of the river to travel through an industrial area, low income housing and a dead Crystal City area to get to ....what?

As for the West Riverside parkway, I'm afraid that is as much a pipedream as converting the PSO powerplant into lofts. It will be an expensive build. The land is in the flood plain and the Feds won't match funds, the land is privately owned by thriving industrial concerns like Arrow Trucking. Some of it is the home of underground toxics. Expected development by retail and housing is at best marginal. Like it or not Tulsans are slow to recognize value on the West side. Their loss.

Once again, who will use it and why? I-75 works pretty well. Unlike Riverside East, it would not connect densely populated areas with downtown. INCOG plans are cool but don't address these problems. Without a total rebuild of the area between Turkey Mtn and 21st street these plans won't make it off the desk.

[TheArtist]

Just took a look at google earth, it almost seems as though someone was purposely trying to disconnect west Tulsa from the east.  41st going through hwy 75 is fine but when 41st goes through I44 Its as if there were no concern what so ever about traffic flow on 41st.  Its a disaster.  As for the industrial area right around 41st across the river, its not so bad, I have wandered around there, probably lost, and there are actually some neat old brick buildings over there and one would assume some of that area would clean up a bit if there were any traffic flow.  Would probably look better than some of the industrial areas on the east side of the city around Mingo and Garnet especially if they zoned any new construction to look decent and not be just prefab.

[swake]

I can, in the far future see the need for a 41st Street bridge, but no time soon.

If the riverfront takes off with development north of 31st as is being talked about and if (really, really big if) the refinery and the related industrial areas between 51st and 31st are remediated into developable riverfront land then the bridge can make sense. Until then, why do you need a bridge to connect south Tulsa to an oil refinery and heavy industry area?

And the idea that it would better link the suburban areas on the other side of the refineries, well, those are all on the other side of US75, and it's much faster to take I-44 to 41st Street to get to the those areas than it would be on any proposed bridge, and you don't have to drive through the middle of a industrial complex.

Not a bad idea, just bad timing, and probably won't be a good idea in any of our lifetimes unless the EPA requires Sinclair to close that refinery.

[Kenosha]

quote: But why? Even if it is easier to travel West 41st, who will and why? When you get past 41st and Union heading west, within a mile the road confusingly curves into Southwest Boulevard, runs for a mile or so then ends at 33rd west ave. Most locals use 33rd to connect onto 44/75 at that point. So it would seem a bridge would make it easier for people on the East side of the river to travel through an industrial area, low income housing and a dead Crystal City area to get to ....what?

As for the West Riverside parkway, I'm afraid that is as much a pipedream as converting the PSO powerplant into lofts. It will be an expensive build. The land is in the flood plain and the Feds won't match funds, the land is privately owned by thriving industrial concerns like Arrow Trucking. Some of it is the home of underground toxics. Expected development by retail and housing is at best marginal. Like it or not Tulsans are slow to recognize value on the West side. Their loss.

Once again, who will use it and why? I-75 works pretty well. Unlike Riverside East, it would not connect densely populated areas with downtown. INCOG plans are cool but don't address these problems. Without a total rebuild of the area between Turkey Mtn and 21st street these plans won't make it off the desk.

Ok, ok.

First of all Waterboy, if we only built roads for places with rapid growth patterns and good demographics and greenfield development sites then no roads in north and west tulsa would ever be built.  These plans are designed to stimulate  different thoughts and ideas for our community.   Yes, the West Bank is largely industrial...now. But, one, should it always be that way? and two, if not ( and I think not) then what will catalyze its change?  That is why you build roads and bridges BEFORE you need them, instead of waiting until you do need them.  So you can shape and plan for growth in your city.

Look at it this way. There are local access bridges at 11th, 21st, and 71st.  The 51st street Bridge is not really a 'local' access bridge. It's I-44, which is probably about to get even busier with the new 'improvements'...anyway, I am a major proponent of a, limited access (meaning: no trucks, no industrial access), vehicular/pedestrian 41st street bridge for several reasons:

1) West Tulsa.  41st Street in W. T-town is basically their East/West main arterial.  It intersects with Red Fork (Ollie's, for reference). Now, in order to get to Midtown; to say a decent grocery store; from Red Fork, one has to drive 2 miles down SW blvd, around the refinery, and across the 21st bridge.  And you are still a good 3 miles from the grocery store.  A bridge at 41st would provide West Tulsans to the amenities of midtown.  Amenities that in our lifetime are not going to appear in West Tulsa.

2) West Riverside Drive, if this is ever going to happen, more access will be needed from he east side. See below.

3) West Bank development. You want river development in Central Tulsa?  Where is the highest amount of underdeveloped land and resources?  You got it.  Between 11th and 51st Street on the West Bank. A 41st Street bridge opens up the demographic makeup of the land considerably, by providing easy and direct access to this area from one of the wealthiest parts of town.  Those are the kind of things that developers want.  They don't want their customers to have to drive miles out of their way to get to said development. What kind of development do you want?  Quality, unique, local, river-oriented, pedestrian-scaled, development, right?  Not big box. Not highway-oriented development. But, mixed use, retail, commercial...maybe even adaptive reuse of the PSO plant (think St. Anthony Main in Minneapolis).  A small local-access vehicular/pedestrian bridge at 41st is key...no, it is critical, in order to accomplish these goals.

4) Another pedestrian loop on the river.  The larger goal of the Tulsa River Parks Trail System is to create as many loops as possible on the river.  Crossings at 11th, 21st, 31st all give park users the ability to choose the length they want to go...south of 31st, you can't cross as a pedestrian again until 71st Street.

Essentially, you take a linear park, and enable its users to utilize sections of the park.  People like to walk around things more than they do out and back.  It's more interesting visually, and it helps to know how far you may have walked or ridden by providing distinct visual landmarks.

5) Aesthetic opportunity. IMO, this is our opportunity to create a one of a kind landmark structure across the river.  I'm thinking
Santiago Calatrava....

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Ok, ok.

1) West Tulsa.  41st Street in W. T-town is basically their East/West main arterial.  It intersects with Red Fork (Ollie's, for reference). Now, in order to get to Midtown; to say a decent grocery store; from Red Fork, one has to drive 2 miles down SW blvd, around the refinery, and across the 21st bridge.  And you are still a good 3 miles from the grocery store.  A bridge at 41st would provide West Tulsans to the amenities of midtown.  Amenities that in our lifetime are not going to appear in West Tulsa.

Not in our lifetime?

How about march '08?

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809280932/info

[Kenosha]

Tell me...How do you get to Tulsa Hills from Red Fork, Swake?

That's right...THE HIGHWAY.

I'm talking about local access.  I'm talking about folks who need better amenities NEAR their homes. I'm talking about, when the tide rises, all boats should rise with it.  Tulsa Hills is will be further, as the crow flies from 41st and Peoria, which makes a 41st Bridge, if I am a West Tulsan, quite desireable.

[TheArtist]

Love his work. I like the one thats a bridge and a modern art museum, now thats mixed use lol.  His new terminal for NY is wonderful.

All that shiny concrete reminds me of how certain sidewalks downtown sparkle and shimmer.  The rumor was it was mixed with diamonds[].  But its simply mica thrown in the mix.  Wouldn't it be a treat if the new sidewalks downtown were done like that.  It would be a simple and cheap matter to get some mica and throw it into the concrete while it is mixing before it is poured.  Would give downtown Tulsa a little bit of extra magic and memorable uniqueness.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Kenosha

You make some good points and I would at least agree about a pedestrian bridge which is less costly and could be done faster. But I see most of these assertions as coming from residents of the East side of the river. It seems there is some cross culturalizing going on here.

Do people along West 41st hunger for a bridge? Or do developers see an opportunity for slapping a little South Tulsa brand capitalism around what is seen as prime river bank real estate? Rwarn? Sgrizzle? Other Westsiders? How do you feel about being told the only decent grocery shopping is over in Brookside? Family Market has served the area for generations. Is there a reason, other than stigma, that other grocers stay away? There's certainly cheap land available along Crystal City which has nearby highway access. Why no other local access retailers other than QT? I don't even see a WalMart nearby. Are they travelling over 44 to the WalMart Grocery in Brookside? Shame on them and Walmart if so.

Where are the large expanses of trucking, pipe mfrs, pump builders all going to move to? Eastside? Will they take the westside workers with them? The workers who live in the real estate that will become too expensive for them to live in once Riverside West displaces them?

If the Westside is convinced that they want to exchange their blue collar, small town feel for new developments with spandex bikers and clusters of joggers then its fine with me. The Santiago bridges are cool.

[rwarn17588]

Kenosha wrote:

Tell me...How do you get to Tulsa Hills from Red Fork, Swake?

That's right...THE HIGHWAY.

<end clip>

Um, wrong.

As a resident of Red Fork, I can tell you that a highway isn't necessary to get to Tulsa Hills. You can get to 81st Street from 33rd West Avenue or from Union Avenue, both which bring you a short distance from the development.

U.S. 75 is an option, but I can tell you firsthand that most residents in Carbondale and Red Fork aren't going to use it. I certainly won't.

Why fight the inevitable traffic snarl around the U.S. 75 interchange when there are at least two lesser-known local roads that bring you close to the development?

[Kenosha]

quote:...there is some cross culturalizing going on here.

Do people along West 41st hunger for a bridge? Or do developers see an opportunity for slapping a little South Tulsa brand capitalism around what is seen as prime river bank real estate? Rwarn? Sgrizzle? Other Westsiders? How do you feel about being told the only decent grocery shopping is over in Brookside? Family Market has served the area for generations. Is there a reason, other than stigma, that other grocers stay away? There's certainly cheap land available along Crystal City which has nearby highway access. Why no other local access retailers other than QT? I don't even see a WalMart nearby. Are they travelling over 44 to the WalMart Grocery in Brookside? Shame on them and Walmart if so.

Where are the large expanses of trucking, pipe mfrs, pump builders all going to move to? Eastside? Will they take the westside workers with them? The workers who live in the real estate that will become too expensive for them to live in once Riverside West displaces them?

If the Westside is convinced that they want to exchange their blue collar, small town feel for new developments with spandex bikers and clusters of joggers then its fine with me. The Santiago bridges are cool

Let me be clear...I am in no way suggesting that West Tulsans be relieved of their identity as unique, hard working individuals. But, for years, they have been crying out to the city as forgotten citizens.  I am just addressing what I see as their needs.  If they tell us differently, so be it.

I would suggest that the west bank of the river,  while technically is in west tulsa, is in fact seperate in identity and function from Red Fork or West Highlands or Southwest Tulsa in general.  I don't see redevelopment on the river banks here as gentrification.  That being said, I see a higher likelihood of Crystal City being redeveloped  if perhaps the west bank was developed.

Be clear about this too...I don't think there are ANY developers interested in this property as it is, so there is not any South Tulsa type capitalism here, at least north of I-44.

I think you are right about the jobs associated with those areas.  I can't say what would happen should arrow relocate, or some of the other manufacturers. But the status quo really isn't what we are going for here, is it?  Clearly the community should have say in what happens, but why on earth would they be opposed to a bridge at that location?  I can't concieve.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Tell me...How do you get to Tulsa Hills from Red Fork, Swake?

That's right...THE HIGHWAY.

I'm talking about local access.  I'm talking about folks who need better amenities NEAR their homes. I'm talking about, when the tide rises, all boats should rise with it.  Tulsa Hills is will be further, as the crow flies from 41st and Peoria, which makes a 41st Bridge, if I am a West Tulsan, quite desireable.

Um, well, I live on the west side (Jenks IS west) so for me it's not hard at all.
Redfork is a tiny (and dying) area, but for the few people that live there, take Southwest Blvd to 33rd W Ave south to 71st, then west to the Tulsa Hills site. Easy. Less than 4 miles.

And, it should be noted, there is a small grocer at 61st and 33rd. Only people who have not lived on the west side think there are access problems like what you discribe.

And to live on the west side means that you use 75, a lot.

I like the Crystal City area, my Kids love Ollie's but if you think that a bridge at 41st is going to resurect the area, you don't know what the problems there are. Start with declining population and poor schools. There's plenty of retail there now, it's just empty due to the area being so poor and the population declining.