Oil Capital Centennial Park and Centennial Walk

[swake]

Oil Capital Centennial Park  and Centennial Walk.

What on earth is going on with this project.  Vision 2025 was passed years ago nothing as been done on this project. The "plans" have been supposed to be "nearly complete" for years.

How hard is it do design a half square block park and redone sidewalks?

We all know exactly what they are going to look like, for instance Patric is going to be very disappointed in the acorn lights and the sidewalks will be brick.

I have heard that the park is going to start construction "soon, in a month or two" for at least a year. I was warned about that parking lot being taken for the park soon when I had to choose a new parking spot when the Tulsa Auto Hotel was being torn down, and that was nearly two years ago.

And why are the plans so secretive?  Or is that just SOP for DTU?
 
Can someone shed some light here?

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by swake

We all know exactly what they are going to look like, for instance Patric is going to be very disappointed in the acorn lights

The architect visited with me last year, and we discussed more efficient and vision-friendly lighting practices, but I was told they were locked into Downtown Tulsa Unlimited's "Downtown Street Furniture Standards" which specifies the glary, vision-robbing energy-greedy Acorns.

V2025 pays to install the Acorns, but where does the money come from to pay triple the energy costs (and six times the maintenance) as compared to existing streetlighting?  

What a shame we dont have better control over our tax money than this (especially at a time when police are now discussing which services to drop to save money).  Were going to end up like Minneapolis and have to spend millions later trying to get ourselves out of a hole we are still digging.  

Its not a question of techinical savvy, but of leadership.

[carltonplace]

Maybe the delay is monetary or just scheduling? This along with the midland valley trail and the route 66 improvements are a few of the things that helped cinch my vote. None of them have had much momentum.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by swake

We all know exactly what they are going to look like, for instance Patric is going to be very disappointed in the acorn lights

The architect visited with me last year, and we discussed more efficient and vision-friendly lighting practices, but I was told they were locked into Downtown Tulsa Unlimited's "Downtown Street Furniture Standards" which specifies the glary, vision-robbing energy-greedy Acorns.

V2025 pays to install the Acorns, but where does the money come from to pay triple the energy costs (and six times the maintenance) as compared to existing streetlighting?  

What a shame we dont have better control over our tax money than this (especially at a time when police are now discussing which services to drop to save money).  Were going to end up like Minneapolis and have to spend millions later trying to get ourselves out of a hole we are still digging.  

Its not a question of techinical savvy, but of leadership.

You should request a meeting that includes not only Jim Norton from DTU but also reps from the Mayor's Office, Public Works, and Councilor Maria Barnes (whose district includes downtown). Show them the economic benefits of the lighting you propose and get DTU to change their spec. Now's the time, before they install all the lights on the Centennial Walk and Boston Avenue, which will happen in the next 6-12 months.

With the city budget always being tenuous, I imagine the Mayor's Office in particular would be extremely interested in saving thousands upon thousands of dollars in wasted energy costs. You might even get a commendation out of the deal. If you feel as though you need some back-up, get the TulsaNow leadership involved and have them come with you. Maybe the Young Professionals group (the real one, not the Chamber tots) and Sustainable Tulsa, too. Then it's not "just one crackpot" bugging them, if you know what I'm saying.

If they won't take a meeting with you and/or the groups mentioned, post their refusals here on the forum. If they do take a meeting and brush off the suggestions, post that here as well. Voters need to know what their elected officials are doing in matters such as this, especially where picking a different light fixture can save millions of taxpayer dollars over time.

[Double A]

Yo Patric, make your move, we've got your back on this one. Is it too late to include lighting standards in the CORE proposals soon to be making it's way to the Council? The caveman over at DTU needs to go extinct or evolve.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
You should request a meeting that includes not only Jim Norton from DTU but also reps from the Mayor's Office, Public Works, and Councilor Maria Barnes (whose district includes downtown). Show them the economic benefits of the lighting you propose and get DTU to change their spec. Now's the time, before they install all the lights on the Centennial Walk and Boston Avenue, which will happen in the next 6-12 months.

Might be a good time to touch bases with the architect again.  They seemed not only knowledgeable but supportive of good lighting concepts, but were on the DTU leash.  Kind of like having ballet dancers perform with tin cans tied to their feet... (May be inefficient but it sure is flashy!) Then we can possibly broaden the discussion with some more key players.  I respect Maria from our lively discussions at the Midtown Coalition, but I dont think I was ever really able to win her over to the concept of better lit streets with less watts (even if the watts you would be cutting consist entirely of disabling glare or uplight).  She's in a better position now to investigate how much the waste is actually costing us, so nothings impossible at this point.    

It seems like a year since I've heard anything about CORE...  Didnt know  they were actually moving on something.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
You should request a meeting that includes not only Jim Norton from DTU but also reps from the Mayor's Office, Public Works, and Councilor Maria Barnes (whose district includes downtown). Show them the economic benefits of the lighting you propose and get DTU to change their spec. Now's the time, before they install all the lights on the Centennial Walk and Boston Avenue, which will happen in the next 6-12 months.

Might be a good time to touch bases with the architect again.  They seemed not only knowledgeable but supportive of good lighting concepts, but were on the DTU leash.  Kind of like having ballet dancers perform with tin cans tied to their feet... (May be inefficient but it sure is flashy!) Then we can possibly broaden the discussion with some more key players.  I respect Maria from our lively discussions at the Midtown Coalition, but I dont think I was ever really able to win her over to the concept of better lit streets with less watts (even if the watts you would be cutting consist entirely of disabling glare or uplight).  She's in a better position now to investigate how much the waste is actually costing us, so nothings impossible at this point.    

It seems like a year since I've heard anything about CORE...  Didnt know  they were actually moving on something.

If and when you pursue this, there are three things you should focus on -- cost, cost, cost. Show how the right fixtures will save thousands of dollars a year. Glare and safety, while something we all understand immediately, will either be lost on them or a "fuzzy" concept they'd be happy to ignore. But saving actual money, REAL money, that they'll understand. When it comes to the other stuff, back it up with quotes from the Tuscon police force about improved safety, etc. They won't care what some white coat figured out in a lab, they will care about actual police officers doing their jobs better because of the lights.

Make it simple for them. If they were picking two nearly identical cars for the city fleet, and one got 5 mpg and the other got 100 mpg because of better technology, which would they buy? Duh. Same thing with these light fixtures, it's just a matter of making a smarter choice. It's not that they aren't smart people, they are. It's that they have about 6.1 million things to worry about every day, so the simpler you can make something, the better the chance they'll grasp it, latch on to it, and make something happen. And I can't stress it enough, ESPECIALLY if it saves the city thousands upon thousands of dollars every year.

[PonderInc]

Here are some examples from around town...

What DTU thinks is a "historic" light (ouch! my eye!)... and what historic lights actually look like



Shielded lighting at Hilcrest (ahhh)... and glare-lovers delight at TU

[TheArtist]

^ Those first two pics above, say it all loud and clear.  Glaring, harsh and uncomfortable vrs, soft, inviting, and very liveable.

[dsjeffries]

I was on the Student Senate at TU and began crafting a resolution regarding the awful acorn lights and compliance with the IDA, but didn't receive any support so I abandoned it.  I wish they'd get rid of those awful lights; especially being home to 2500 people who walk everywhere, you'd expect them to install lighting that does not put pedestrians at a great risk...

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Shielded lighting at Hilcrest (ahhh)... and glare-lovers delight at TU

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Here are some examples from around town...

What DTU thinks is a "historic" light (ouch! my eye!)... and what historic lights actually look like

One of the arguments I often hear for Acorns is that they cast light on architecture (as if it were the only way) but these photos show the glare overwhelming any architectural features worth showing off.

quote:Shielded lighting at Hilcrest (ahhh)... and glare-lovers delight at TU

When TU's physical plant director Robert Shipley presented plans to the Midtown Coalition of Neighborhoods, he stated he and his architects had never heard of "Full Cutoff" lighting when I made a plea for better lighting.  The idea of a professional lighting designer having no knowledge of a common IES (Illuminating Engineering Society) lighting category didnt inspire me with confidence, so TU continues to take a head-in-the-sand approach.

These are excellent photos.  Notice the Acorns attempting to be the sole source of street illumination instead of just moderate decorative accents (and notice there are about three times as many in an unsuccessful attempt to compensate).

As I understand, if TU's acorns are along a city street the maintenance and electricity are paid for by the city (our taxes).

DScott:  If you need some support please let me know; if you have access to costs and engineering figures they would be useful to crunch into some numbers to make a case.  (How many Acorns does TU have now? ...plan to add?)

[PonderInc]

I was driving around TU the other night taking pictures, and I was shocked at how horrible the lighting is now.  I'm surprised that airplanes don't land on campus...thinking it's an airport runway!

The campus used to be a warm, friendly place to walk at night (I was a student there in the late 80's).  Now, it looks like the set of some weird sci-fi movie...the cold, white lights everywhere you look.  The acorns are a terrible distraction.  I actually found myself totally disoriented not far from 6th and Delaware b/c I looked up and all I could see were hundreds of aggressive white lights...had a hard time seeing the buildings behind them to get my bearings!

I spoke to the guy at TU who is in charge of the lighting there, and he said that the regents made the decision to go with the acorns...and the white lights (instead of the warmer colored bulbs).  They thought the white lights made the buildings look better.  I totally disagree!  It doesn't take a psychologist to tell you that these are harsh, cold, and impersonal lights that do not invite you into their warm embrace.

You can also drive by the Cain's ballroom at night for a taste of what our downtown will soon become...as cold and impersonal as the inside of a morgue!  (Welcome tourists!)

[pmcalk]

^The picture above of Kilkennys/Peace of Mind are gas lights, and I understand that Kilkenny's owner placed them on his own.  IMO, gas lights are much better looking than electric, giving a much more historic feel.  I am curious how difficult/expensive it is to use gas lights.  I know growing up, most houses on my street had gas lights in front; but one by one they were taken down.  Are they difficult to maintain?  Are they prone to leaks?  Would it be possible for the city to return to gas lights in certain areas?

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

he said that the regents made the decision to go with the acorns...and the white lights (instead of the warmer colored bulbs).  They thought the white lights made the buildings look better.  I totally disagree!  It doesn't take a psychologist to tell you that these are harsh, cold, and impersonal lights that do not invite you into their warm embrace.

When you compare the spectra of different light sources, Incandescent, Compact Fluorescent, High Pressure Sodium, Metal Halide and sunlight...

...it pretty well confirms what your eye is telling you, that Metal Halide (MH) is mostly blue with some spikes of other colors mixed in.

The "white light" claim is bogus marketing hype used to get customers to switch to the more expensive Metal Halide.  Compared to Sodium, it is "whiter" but it's still cold, uninviting blue.

PonderInc raises a valid point, in that color plays a big role in how objects are perceived.  Given the choice, would you blanket your city in a ghastly pallor more suitable to a mausoleum, or go for a warmer, more inviting hue?

Then of course, there are other concerns.

Your eyes will tell you a lot more than some manufacturers slick brochure.

[sgrizzle]

anyone have any info on the original question? Kirby?