East End In Trouble?

[ttown_jeff]

See here:
http://boundrationality.blogspot.com/2007/02/is-tulsas-east-end-proposal-in-jeopardy.html#links

[sgrizzle]

I'll refrain from judgement before I hear both ends of the story.

[aoxamaxoa]

Well DUH! Told you so. Promoters! Brokers! Shicksters!

"She (mayor) said one appealing aspect of the East End project is that Global is working with a local group that knows what the scene should be downtown."  NOW THAT'S FUNNY!!!!!

Looks like the Nordam bunch likes lawsuits. They must have given up on the prospect being able to perform to sue them for the earnest deposit money. Was some other party waiting in the wings? doubtful.... just greed.

Great link! Thanks!

[TheArtist]

Ok, I am not a legal jargon person.  Could someone explain all that in laymans terms, or better yet explain a couple of the terms so I can learn lol?  Whats happening?

I really really wanted this development to happen.  But for some reason kept getting a sinking feeling, even in the beginning, that it wouldn't. For one thing if some of the old property owners downtown even gets a whiff of some development coming in, they get even more greedy than they usually seem and want to get rich off their property by asking even higher prices.  If the development doesn't happen, they just go, Oh well, no sweat off my back. I will just sit and wait around 10, 20, 30 or more years until the next opportunity arises.  In the meantime, abandoned run down buildings and empty lots just sit there.  Are they possibly looking for a repeat of the old boomtime days when you could pull that off?  Buy cheap on the downturn, sell high on the upturn. Do they not realize thats not gonna happen in this town ever again? Those days are looong over.  They will just sit on that property until they die with it, then pass it on to the next generation of trust fund babies, all the while stagnating everything around them.

[aoxamaxoa]

Tulsa will boom again someday when the sea rises from global warming and people start moving here in droves from the coasts. Why else does Jimmy Inhofe take that position?

The land is good property and if the owners want to do what is best for Tulsa they will continue to seek the highest and best use at a slow and well thought out manner.
There needs to be comfortable and affordable day to day (not neccesarily night to night) lifestyle developed to bring east downtown back.

[ttown_jeff]

Explanation: Basically, the parties entered into an agreement.  There was some money promised for closing, and it never happened. Nordam sued. It doesn't mean the deal is off, but it doesn't look good.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Tulsa will boom again someday when the sea rises from global warming and people start moving here in droves from the coasts. Why else does Jimmy Inhofe take that position?

The land is good property and if the owners want to do what is best for Tulsa they will continue to seek the highest and best use at a slow and well thought out manner.
There needs to be comfortable and affordable day to day (not neccesarily night to night) lifestyle developed to bring east downtown back.

I am 40 years old and have seen huge swaths of downtown property sit fallow my entire life.  Just how much longer are they going to wait? Another 40 years perhaps? I mean come on. Large companies or wealthy people can afford to wait generations if they feel like it.

Not to mention, the idea that they are waiting for the "right development" or the "highest and best use" an enlightened self-interest done for our own ignorant good, is absurd.  You think anyone believes that? lol If it was a whore house that offered them their asking price they would leap at it. They don't give a danged about what goes there.  If they think its such a great piece of property and know what should go there, why don't they build on it themselves?

I don't want to sound so ornery and jaded, but all my life I have heard people say what you say, and all my life I have seen just the opposite happen.  Ya can't help but not believe it any more. Unless something changes, Tulsa is still in the position of being a beggar city.  Beggars can't be choosers, sitting around waiting to win the lottery "the next boom" isn't a good strategy.  If we want something, we are going to have to work hard to get it.

Look at that Bates article about the river. Count the number of "plans", developments, hopes and dreams, that never panned out. How many times before have we been exactly right where we are now?  Same thing with those lots downtown, I have heard it before, over and over, and over, and over.....  And yet there they still sit.  What was the latest vacancy rate downtown? 26%  And its a great time to build more?  There aren't any better risks or cities where this out of town entity could invest its money? What would make us more attractive than some place else?

[tim huntzinger]

More questions than answers from this hater.

So who among this forum has known that the East End partners could not fork over a measly $24K to fund them big dreams?

Could this be behind the sudden public relations campaign for the Pearl District??

Were these Partners the chief mover behind the 'East End' or one of several?

Is the thought that the City was not looking at extending a 'TIF' to the area and that is why the group pulled out?

And check the article where it sez that the plan is to connect dtown with midtown!! Ha ha ha ha!! The ghetto at 6th & Peoria is now midtown! HAHAHAHA!!

[tim huntzinger]

More questions than answers from this hater.

So who among this forum has known that the East End partners could not fork over a measly $24K to fund them big dreams?

Could this be behind the sudden public relations campaign for the Pearl District??

Were these Partners the chief mover behind the 'East End' or one of several?

Is the thought that the City was not looking at extending a 'TIF' to the area and that is why the group pulled out?

And check the article where it sez that the plan is to connect dtown with midtown!! Ha ha ha ha!! The ghetto at 6th & Peoria is now midtown! HAHAHAHA!!

[USRufnex]

Gee, Tim... "NAYSAYERS WIN!!!  NAYSAYERS WIN!!!" [!]

Sounds like there's been a big game of "chicken" going on... there's ZERO reasons for Global to buy those properties if the mayor's office can't give reasonable assurances that a TIF will be created for it.

A measly $24K?  Really?  Looks like a lot more than that is going on...

quote:Tulsa Partners I LLC paid an initial deposit of $45,000, but on April 10, Tulsa Partners notified Nordam of its intent to extend the period of time to "conduct its due diligence" of the property. In response, Nordam Group Inc. requested an additional deposit of $45,000 to Guaranty Abstract, which Tulsa Partners paid, the suit said.

The agreement was again amended Aug. 25 when the closing date on the property was delayed to Oct. 29, with an additional $45,000 owed to Guarantee Abstract by Tulsa Partners. The closing date was delayed again on Oct. 29 to Nov. 30, when $100,000 was required of Tulsa Partners in exchange for the extension. Both deposits were paid by Tulsa Partners, the lawsuit said.

The closing date was moved a third time to Dec. 29 and Nordam Group requested an additional $200,000 deposit from Tulsa Partners. The suit then claims that Tulsa Partners did not make the payment.

"Conduct its due diligence"?

Doesn't this have more to do with the new occupant of the mayor's office and less to do with the property itself?

With a project this size, what kind of TIF would it require?  20 years?  Who's taking the risk?  The developer or the city?  Would the city be left holding the bag?  Anybody know?

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20061019/ai_n16806447

As for "connecting downtown with midtown," maybe you should mind your manners... the area around 6th & Peoria is NOT a ghetto.  Struggling?  Definitely.  

Affordable housing = rentals/homes/condos that typical Tulsa twentysomethings making $10 per hour doing call center work can afford... anything else is lipservice for taxbreaks disguised as incentives that will be used to line the pockets of millionaires...

A successful Gallery Place-style East End project could provide a great indirect help for the 6th & Peoria area and Central Park..... connect it to midtown... and could help Blue Dome and Brady more than their original TIF designations...

The same reasons Global's $25M purchase of soccer's  DC United fell through could be same reasons the East End project falls apart... I kept getting the feeling these people are more fundraisers than actual investors, but hey.... whaddya expect from real estate people?

[waterboy]

Man, this is getting confusing.

First off, I think the reference to the Pearl District as "mid-town" is confusing to those in the real estate arena. Mid-town hasn't been that far north and so close to Downtown since the fifties. Mid-town more often would be seen as north of 51st and south of 21st. Probably east of Lewis. But I could be wrong.

Secondly, what the $$**$ is going on with the increasingly large amounts for deposits? That would imply that there was another buyer in the wings. If not it seems strange that they would keep plopping down more and more money unless there was a compelling reason. Obviously they thought it was going to close. It was up to 190,000 by Dec 26th and they were asking for 200,000 more? They walked away from $190,000? Wonder who the agent is and what he walked away with....[]

[USRufnex]

I know what you're saying and I think a sales brochure touting "the East End's convenient downtown location is less than a mile from the affluent Mid-Town district of the City" would be better and more accurate, but... real estate people stretching the truth isn't exactly a newsflash...

And I have the same reaction to "Pearl District" now that I did after hearing about the "East Village" a year and a half ago...

Where are these mystical happy neighborhoods?  3 blocks from the Xanadu District?... convenient to Narnia...?

Ask 100 Tulsans (not in real estate) where the Pearl District is... --blank stares--... --sounds of crickets--...  [:I]
 

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Man, this is getting confusing.

First off, I think the reference to the Pearl District as "mid-town" is confusing to those in the real estate arena. Mid-town hasn't been that far north and so close to Downtown since the fifties. Mid-town more often would be seen as north of 51st and south of 21st. Probably east of Lewis. But I could be wrong.

A lot of people are under the impression that Midtown refers to whatever patch of land happens to be in the geographic center of town at the moment. That's incorrect. It's not "midtown" as in the middle of town, it's "Midtown" as in the description of a specific area. Cherry Street, the Pearl, Brookside, etc. are all a part of Midtown. 51st and anything has never been a part of Midtown, the specific distict for which the name was coined in the first place.

Just because of all the new stuff built south of 61st Street doesn't mean they're going to rename the famous golf course "Midtown Hills Country Club". []

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Man, this is getting confusing.

First off, I think the reference to the Pearl District as "mid-town" is confusing to those in the real estate arena. Mid-town hasn't been that far north and so close to Downtown since the fifties. Mid-town more often would be seen as north of 51st and south of 21st. Probably east of Lewis. But I could be wrong.

A lot of people are under the impression that Midtown refers to whatever patch of land happens to be in the geographic center of town at the moment. That's incorrect. It's not "midtown" as in the middle of town, it's "Midtown" as in the description of a specific area. Cherry Street, the Pearl, Brookside, etc. are all a part of Midtown. 51st and anything has never been a part of Midtown, the specific district for which the name was coined in the first place.

Just because of all the new stuff built south of 61st Street doesn't mean they're going to rename the famous golf course "Midtown Hills Country Club". []

[pmcalk]

I think if we did a survey of people's opinion of what constitutes mid-town, we'd get a hundred different answers.  I agree that "mid-town" doesn't really refer to the middle of the city, yet I have seen realtors advertise houses as "conveniently located in mid-town" when the house was at 51st & Harvard. I have friends who live in Jenks who think anything not in Jenks, not downtown, and not north, must be midtown.