Glenpool wooing the fairgrounds?

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What is so stupid about it? The fairgrounds would be much freer to operate in the manner it once did when it was on the edge of the city of Tulsa. It could operate stock car races again. There is horse breeding in the Glenpool area that might support horse racing. And the demographic might be better for the fairgrounds in either of these areas. They could invite Bells' back in. Build a better water park. It should seriously be considered.

Put it in Bixby and the south tulsa bridge becomes more important. It opens a huge area for mid-town development and right now any move in this city is better than just waiting for the Arena dollars to cascade in.

There are benefits, but the county won't let it's cash cow leave. The cost of rebuilding everything alone would negate any short term, possibly long term, gains. It would require massive public funding which no-one but glenpool would really support.

[Double A]

Besides does this protect the County from possible annexations in the future by these municipalities?
Considering it will be in the fenceline, the answer is no. Randi Miller better take a cue from Bob Dick and spare herself an embarrassing reelection loss. I'll be willing to bet she'll have opponents lining up across the political spectrum to challenge her.

[cannon_fodder]

I got a crazy idea, they could compromise!

The city should only tax the fair and leave everything else alone.  Basically, because the fair will be there every year and essentially cant leave.  Events from outside the area (Arabian Horse show, sprint cars, etc.) could just decide to go somewhere else and therefor the city would lose out on all their money.

Hell, not sure if that is fair (no pun...) or not, but something like this should be workable.  Or tax it at a lower rate and invest the extra money in infrastructure/services for the area.  Something has to be workable.

[Double A]

Or the County could give the 3 mils in property tax back to the City and I'll bet the city would walk away from this annexation proposal. That's a real compromise. If the City annexes the fairgrounds they need to collect sales taxes on all events.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

What is so stupid about it? The fairgrounds would be much freer to operate in the manner it once did when it was on the edge of the city of Tulsa. It could operate stock car races again. There is horse breeding in the Glenpool area that might support horse racing. And the demographic might be better for the fairgrounds in either of these areas. They could invite Bells' back in. Build a better water park. It should seriously be considered.

Put it in Bixby and the south tulsa bridge becomes more important. It opens a huge area for mid-town development and right now any move in this city is better than just waiting for the Arena dollars to cascade in.

How many millions were just spent improving the current fairgrounds?  how many million more will it take to build a facility as good or better?  Who is going to pay for all of it?  A decision to move the fairgrounds after so much has been spent improving the current??  This is the kind of wasteful spending that makes this liberal guy still vote for Republicans.  

I'm sure this is just Glenpool putting the offer on the table, I just think it's a colossal insult.  If this had been offered ten years ago, I could understand it.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I got a crazy idea, they could compromise!

The city should only tax the fair and leave everything else alone.  Basically, because the fair will be there every year and essentially cant leave.  Events from outside the area (Arabian Horse show, sprint cars, etc.) could just decide to go somewhere else and therefor the city would lose out on all their money.

Hell, not sure if that is fair (no pun...) or not, but something like this should be workable.  Or tax it at a lower rate and invest the extra money in infrastructure/services for the area.  Something has to be workable.

This guy is not interested in compromise. Cannon, you have some insight as to how business/govt work. He has a grudge because of the 3 mills. This is a battle between hard headed okies that steal from each other and call the other a thief. If it happened in a city park with two thieves the guns would already be drawn. BTW, aa, city councilors have been known to lose their elections over pissy stuff like this too. If you're so sure this is going to happen, give us a date. I'm betting on compromise because they don't think like you.

Tulsa 1603, consider the possibilities. Anything is possible. The city could buy the property with buildings and operate it themselves. They don't have much confidence in the county anyway. The buildings could be disassembled and moved, they aren't all that permanent except the Expo. Or the entire operation could be farmed out to Murphy Bros. They operate much of it anyway (the water park, the fair). I am not naive. I know this couldn't be done quickly or easily but if this is going to be a continuous battle between the city boys and the country boys, it can be done.

[TheArtist]

So the county owns the buildings and can move them wherever they want?  Would they still own them if the city annexed the fairgrounds?  Otherwise if the buildings were to stay then who is going to spend the money to build new ones in Bixby or Glenpool?  I wouldn't vote for a county tax that would do that.  It would have to be the suburb that paid for building a new fairground, that was equal to or better than the old one in order to compete.  If its the suburb that would be fronting the cost of building new facilities... Whats to stop any suburb from doing so and wooing, for instance, the Arabian Horse show away from Tulsa?  Whats to stop any city anywhere from doing that?  I don't think those shows or events give a crap what suburb or city even in another state they go to, they just want to go where they can get the best deal and the most people at the best facilities. Go ahead let the suburbs compete with Tulsa, if they can do a cheaper job and build better facilities, more power to em.  Bring it on, let the competition begin. Little putzy suburbs.  We will show em who the big dog is. []

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I got a crazy idea, they could compromise!

The city should only tax the fair and leave everything else alone.  Basically, because the fair will be there every year and essentially cant leave.  Events from outside the area (Arabian Horse show, sprint cars, etc.) could just decide to go somewhere else and therefor the city would lose out on all their money.

Hell, not sure if that is fair (no pun...) or not, but something like this should be workable.  Or tax it at a lower rate and invest the extra money in infrastructure/services for the area.  Something has to be workable.

This guy is not interested in compromise. Cannon, you have some insight as to how business/govt work. He has a grudge because of the 3 mills. This is a battle between hard headed okies that steal from each other and call the other a thief. If it happened in a city park with two thieves the guns would already be drawn. BTW, aa, city councilors have been known to lose their elections over pissy stuff like this too. If you're so sure this is going to happen, give us a date. I'm betting on compromise because they don't think like you.

Tulsa 1603, consider the possibilities. Anything is possible. The city could buy the property with buildings and operate it themselves. They don't have much confidence in the county anyway. The buildings could be disassembled and moved, they aren't all that permanent except the Expo. Or the entire operation could be farmed out to Murphy Bros. They operate much of it anyway (the water park, the fair). I am not naive. I know this couldn't be done quickly or easily but if this is going to be a continuous battle between the city boys and the country boys, it can be done.

Oh Waterbuoy, cry me a river. This will happen, the Councilors will support it. Why? Because the majority of Tulsans support this.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I got a crazy idea, they could compromise!

The city should only tax the fair and leave everything else alone.  Basically, because the fair will be there every year and essentially cant leave.  Events from outside the area (Arabian Horse show, sprint cars, etc.) could just decide to go somewhere else and therefor the city would lose out on all their money.

Hell, not sure if that is fair (no pun...) or not, but something like this should be workable.  Or tax it at a lower rate and invest the extra money in infrastructure/services for the area.  Something has to be workable.

This guy is not interested in compromise. Cannon, you have some insight as to how business/govt work. He has a grudge because of the 3 mills. This is a battle between hard headed okies that steal from each other and call the other a thief. If it happened in a city park with two thieves the guns would already be drawn. BTW, aa, city councilors have been known to lose their elections over pissy stuff like this too. If you're so sure this is going to happen, give us a date. I'm betting on compromise because they don't think like you.

Tulsa 1603, consider the possibilities. Anything is possible. The city could buy the property with buildings and operate it themselves. They don't have much confidence in the county anyway. The buildings could be disassembled and moved, they aren't all that permanent except the Expo. Or the entire operation could be farmed out to Murphy Bros. They operate much of it anyway (the water park, the fair). I am not naive. I know this couldn't be done quickly or easily but if this is going to be a continuous battle between the city boys and the country boys, it can be done.

Oh Waterbuoy, cry me a river. This will happen, the Councilors will support it. Why? Because the majority of Tulsans support this.

You linked to a poll that showed everyone who responded...against annexation.

You have all the inside info AA. I'm just a taxpayer.

I like your verve Artist. Thats pretty much what I'm saying. The county could dismantle those buildings and take them or sell them I suppose. Re-election be damned! And wherever they move, they could still compete with the original fairgrounds site if it still operated as a promotional venue. A taste of the free market thrust upon the government.

[Kiah]

This has got to be one of the dumbest bluffs I've ever heard of.

The county is going to pick up the IPE building and the Pavilion, and the Armory, and Fair Meadows, and the Driller Stadium, and Big Spash, and . . . all of the new state-of-the-art facilities county residents are still spending hundreds of millions of dollars to build or rehab, and move them all to . . . a pasture in Glenpool or Bixby?

I hope they don't think they can take Vision 2025 and 4-to-Fix funds with them.  Those were approved for improvements to Expo Square.

Or, maybe they'll just abandon all that.  It's perfect for re-use as . . . I don't know, county fairgrounds.  Maybe the voters of Tulsa County will approve a billion dollars or so to rebuild it all in Gomer's back 40.  I don't think I'd count on the votes of the 67% of Tulsa County residents who live in the city of Tulsa, though.

[Kiah]

By the way, has anyone ever addressed why the county doesn't waive its sales tax for Expo Square vendors, as it's asking the city to continue to do?  Has the county asked the state to waive its sales tax?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

By the way, has anyone ever addressed why the county doesn't waive its sales tax for Expo Square vendors, as it's asking the city to continue to do?  Has the county asked the state to waive its sales tax?

The county doesn't collect the sales tax do they? I thought they were remitted by the vendors to the state to be redistributed. Its not collected I suppose because its not city property, that's why they want to annex it. The same reason would also apply to the state I guess. A gentlemen's agreement that bodies of govt don't tax each other.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

This has got to be one of the dumbest bluffs I've ever heard of.

The county is going to pick up the IPE building and the Pavilion, and the Armory, and Fair Meadows, and the Driller Stadium, and Big Spash, and . . . all of the new state-of-the-art facilities county residents are still spending hundreds of millions of dollars to build or rehab, and move them all to . . . a pasture in Glenpool or Bixby?

I hope they don't think they can take Vision 2025 and 4-to-Fix funds with them.  Those were approved for improvements to Expo Square.

Or, maybe they'll just abandon all that.  It's perfect for re-use as . . . I don't know, county fairgrounds.  Maybe the voters of Tulsa County will approve a billion dollars or so to rebuild it all in Gomer's back 40.  I don't think I'd count on the votes of the 67% of Tulsa County residents who live in the city of Tulsa, though.

well, duh. Of course it won't happen. Its a way of communicating a position and it has worked pretty well. The city council looks just as  foolish to me as the county only a little more greedy. This s**t should have been figured out before taken to the press and a city council meeting.

And btw, "state of the art" in this case means erector set buildings that can be disassembled and moved like fair rides. The Armory? Who wants it? Same with the Ice Capades building. The Drillers? Get real, they want to move it downtown anyway. Big Splash? I'm sorry, its worn out. Did you not notice or have you not been in the last few years? Fair Meadows is a dirt track built on the old stock car raceway. Someone will run it. The only thing that couldn't either be discounted or carried away is the IPE. I'm sure someone, like Murphy Bros. or the city can run it, leaky roof and all.

I frankly wish the county had moved it out of town before spending so much money on it.

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

By the way, has anyone ever addressed why the county doesn't waive its sales tax for Expo Square vendors, as it's asking the city to continue to do?  Has the county asked the state to waive its sales tax?

The county doesn't collect the sales tax do they? I thought they were remitted by the vendors to the state to be redistributed. Its not collected I suppose because its not city property, that's why they want to annex it. The same reason would also apply to the state I guess. A gentlemen's agreement that bodies of govt don't tax each other.

The state collects sales tax for cities and counties.  That doesn't mean county and state sales taxes aren't applied.  That's like saying everything I buy online is free, because Amazon doesn't collect money from my bank account.  I remit it to Visa instead.

Vendors aren't "bodies of govt."  They're fully taxable, and are, in fact, taxed by the county and state -- not the city, even though the city provides many costly services and substantial infrastructure to make those vendors' sales possible.

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

And btw, "state of the art" in this case means erector set buildings that can be disassembled and moved like fair rides. The Armory? Who wants it? Same with the Ice Capades building. The Drillers? Get real, they want to move it downtown anyway. Big Splash? I'm sorry, its worn out. Did you not notice or have you not been in the last few years? Fair Meadows is a dirt track built on the old stock car raceway. Someone will run it. The only thing that couldn't either be discounted or carried away is the IPE. I'm sure someone, like Murphy Bros. or the city can run it, leaky roof and all.

That's an awfully cavalier attitude about facilities we've spent and are spending hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on.