New Developer for the East End

[TheArtist]

Why cant we require that they do something along these lines?  Either we can stop them from building, or we cant.  And if we cant then this conversation is stupid.  If we can stop them then we can say, If you want to build downtown it must follow these rules...

http://www.ptvermont.org/St.Albans/stalbans.htm

[jdb]

WM is not a viable option for vitalizing DT. Minimum, it would remove space that could be used to create an incentive.

Long term, short term, urban facade or otherwise: plunking a WM down in the EE would be a desperate move in the wrong direction.

Say goodbye to anything chic, hip, or of substance, jdb

[USRufnex]

Wish list for a grocery store in DT...

1.  Locally owned market with inexpensive stuff-- but that would take a miracle...

2.  Trader Joe's.
3.  Aldi.
4.  WalMart Neighborhood Market.
5.  Save A Lot.
.
.
.
.
.
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96.  WalMart Supercenter.
97.  Target.
98.  Reasors.
99.  Warehouse Market.
100.  Albertson's.

I tire of the shrill noises from the agenda-driven borderline cult known as the "Church of WE-HATE-WALMART"...
http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2006/Wal-Mart-Movement16feb06.htm

http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A7565

[YoungTulsan]

The only reason I'm leary of a DT wal-mart is because I do not trust the local government to force Wal-mart into building anything "Urban".  It'll end up looking like the 66th and Memorial Wal-Mart (which they probably thought they were doing us a favor by making it look "good" instead of like the typical blue supercenters)

Of course I think a DT wal-mart has always been the biggest nightmare of everyone on this forum.

But apparently Wal-mart has done their research and identified this as a potential site for a successful store.  Other stores should take advantage of this and try to move in on it.  I really like the idea of a Costco, if they would just enter the Tulsa market.  Build their first store downtown, and I guarantee people would come from all over to shop there.  Between the wal-mart haters who refuse to shop at WM and Sams, and the lack of stores for miles in every direction, there is no way a Costco (or any other chain that currently doesn't have a store in the Tulsa market) could fail.

I don't see how anyone could argue that a busy grocery store wouldn't be a catalyst for activity in the area tho.  I wonder if this new developer actually has any master-plan for a real interconnected development like the original east end proposal tho.  If he lets a big box megacenter with a huge parking lot build here, then he is just looking to cash in quick on his land holdings.

I still think with all these new Walmarts popping up that Tulsa is like some sort of sick experiment for the corporates at WM to see if they can completely take over an entire market and eliminate all competition.  I think they're willing to spend a ton of money just to see if they can succeed.  We probably have the largest per-capita Walmart proliferation of any metro area already.

[PonderInc]

Perhaps Walmart has turned over some new urban leaf (left-over designs from their failed attempts to assimilate the Germans?), but...

A few years ago, WM was planning a Neighborhood Market at 41st and Harvard.  The neighbors were invited to talk to the developers so that WM could "work together with the neighbors to give them what they wanted."  

What WM wanted was to convert several residences into a massive surface parking lot.  I asked if they would be willing to move the building to the street front, and to put all the parking in the rear.  They acted like this was an impossibility (along the lines of filling in the Grand Canyon with gold nuggets).  This radical idea would have required an entrance in the front AND the back, which "just wasn't feasible."

(Funny, it works on other stores in other cities.  In Portland, OR, you park under the Safeway grocery store and take the elevator or stairs into the produce section...or you can walk in the front door from the street.)

I don't shop at Walmart, but if they could create a terrific urban design (No surface parking, no hideous parking garage, attractive/scaled design with shop front windows, etc, I would support it.)

I've read articles recently that indicate that the big-box stores (not the local merchants) are going to be in trouble as more and more people shop for generic items via the internet.  When you have nothing special to offer, it doesn't matter who offers it.  Meanwhile, local folks with unique offerings and personal customer service are better positioned, long-term, to survive a further increase in internet shopping.  We'll see.

[TheArtist]

I really don't care what store, large or small, goes downtown. As long as it fits the urban, walkable, thrust we want to happen there, I am fine with it. There can't be too much damage done to the north in the Brady district or to the East in the Pearl because of their zoning and form based codes.  Are there any codes for downtown?  Would there be any way of stopping a "traditional" WM from going in?

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I really don't care what store, large or small, goes downtown. As long as it fits the urban, walkable, thrust we want to happen there, I am fine with it. There can't be too much damage done to the north in the Brady district or to the East in the Pearl because of their zoning and form based codes.  Are there any codes for downtown?  Would there be any way of stopping a "traditional" WM from going in?

There aren't any design guidelines for downtown, but there should be.

The one bit of leverage the City would have is that if they wanted to build something bigger than about 42,000 square feet (1/2 block), they'd have to get the city council to vacate a street or alley. That's because most 300' by 300' blocks (although not all) are split in two by a 20' wide alley which is a public right of way.

One block that isn't split is the superblock across the street from McNellie's, between 1st, 2nd, Elgin and Greenwood. The only building is the old Santa Fe freight depot; the block was the Santa Fe freight yards. It is owned by the same John Williams from Claremore.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I really don't care what store, large or small, goes downtown. As long as it fits the urban, walkable, thrust we want to happen there, I am fine with it. There can't be too much damage done to the north in the Brady district or to the East in the Pearl because of their zoning and form based codes.  Are there any codes for downtown?  Would there be any way of stopping a "traditional" WM from going in?

There aren't any design guidelines for downtown, but there should be.

The one bit of leverage the City would have is that if they wanted to build something bigger than about 42,000 square feet (1/2 block), they'd have to get the city council to vacate a street or alley. That's because most 300' by 300' blocks (although not all) are split in two by a 20' wide alley which is a public right of way.

One block that isn't split is the superblock across the street from McNellie's, between 1st, 2nd, Elgin and Greenwood. The only building is the old Santa Fe freight depot; the block was the Santa Fe freight yards. It is owned by the same John Williams from Claremore.

You and I are thinking the same things on this deal. Without leverage, not much the city can do, so hopefully this development will require a variance or a PUD.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Perhaps Walmart has turned over some new urban leaf (left-over designs from their failed attempts to assimilate the Germans?), but...

edited  You and JDB... I'll be moving back to a pragmatic city that values PROGRESS soon enough...

You going to take your ball and go home.....?


On another note I think a well done Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market downtown would be a great addition and a step in the right direction....

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Perhaps Walmart has turned over some new urban leaf (left-over designs from their failed attempts to assimilate the Germans?), but...

Watch it with the language.  You and JDB... I'll be moving back to a pragmatic city that values PROGRESS soon enough...

Need some help packing?

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

You going to take your ball and go home.....?

that will depend on job and quality of life/education issues over anything posted on a website...

"Need some help packing?"
LOL.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

You going to take your ball and go home.....?

that will depend on job and quality of life/education issues over anything posted on a website...

"Need some help packing?"
LOL.

Thought you'd enjoy that. []

If you leave, be sure to stop by occasionally for some sparring.

[shadows]

Quote:
He said Nordam's contract with Williams still depends on winning certain concessions from the city, such as tax increment financing.
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Having seem a DT made up of small stores and people shoulder to shoulder like you see on TV when they are displaying the DT of other cities and seeing it today.

The above quote is the reason why we are so interested in establishing a mega store along with the luscious taxing district.

Then also they have already a bank charter so we will have another bank down town where the proven personal traffic gathers.  One wonders if they will be bank competitive like they were to the mom and pop stores, staying open 24 hours daily.   24 hour banking?  

[Double A]

I hope this is dependent upon Wal-Mart getting a TIF. Kill the TIF, it will stop this Wal-Mart. Downtown already has way too many TIFs, anyway.

[jdb]

Ever notice the sophistication level of wm shoppers and supporters are about the same?

Cheap junk for the consumers...Shirley, a worthwhile experience.

jdb