Tulsa Councilor pay

[RecycleMichael]

I seem to be in the minority that people in city government should be paid what they are worth. I think the councilors are underpaid.

One of them already agrees. It will be interesting to see how many other councilors  agree and who on this board agrees.

Here is the story...

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=121846

City Councilors Push For Pay Raise
KOTV - 3/6/2007 10:56 AM - Updated 3/6/2007 5:18 PM
Some Tulsa city councilors want a pay raise. The councilors know how people generally react when a politician complains about their pay, but they point out that if the pay is too low, a lot of people wouldn't even consider running for the office, and because of that some good people might not want the job. The News on 6's Emory Bryan reports on how much Tulsa councilors are paid, and how their pay compares to other cities.

At any council meeting the lowest paid people are usually the councilors themselves. The nine city councilors make $18,000 a year, and Councilor Jack Henderson thinks that's not enough.

"That's lower than most of the city employees get, but we make bigger decision and spend more money than anybody else working for the city," he said.

A study by the city council staff found that most other cities the size of Tulsa pay their councilors more. The highest was Minneapolis, the lowest was Albuquerque, and the average was more than twice as much as Tulsa. The options for adjusting councilor pay include using the average of other cities, adjusting it for inflation or tying it to raises given to other city employee. The city could do nothing, but several of the councilors believe considering the hours, it's a job that should pay more.

"I put anywhere from 60 to 80 hours a week, not only dealing with the office here, but every facet of my life, every where I go, I'm a city council man," Henderson said.

More than half of Tulsa's councilors work other jobs, and the others are retired. They all know voting for a pay raise would be controversial.

"I've got mixed emotions about it, but Henderson is right because this isn't a part time job, they've been saying that for years, but I knew what I was getting into when I got into this," Councilman Roscoe Turner said.

The councilors will discuss the pay study in two weeks. Any raise they might approve for the council wouldn't apply to them, but to their successors on the new council next year.

[pmcalk]

What do county commissioners get paid?

[Double A]

I agree. The Councilors are underpaid. They deserve a raise. FYI, an 8% pay raise would bring their salary up to $19,440 a year and they would still be underpaid IMO.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

What do county commissioners get paid?

$97,387.50. They are obscenely overpaid.

[Wilbur]

I'm for the raise.  According to the Tulsa World article (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070307_1_A9_Counc11725) counselor pay was last adjusted in 2001.  Prior to that, it was last adjusted in 1991.

From 1991 to 2001, their pay was adjusted at the same percentage rate of city employees (it went up 38%).  To be fair, I would agree with a raise that is the same percentage other city employees got since 2001.

And to be even more fair - lets compare their pay to the same cities Tulsa officials like to use for the rest of their employees when looking at salaries.  And remember, no matter what Jack Henderson says, these are considered part time positions.

[TulsaSooner]

Doesn't Jack Henderson and/or Roscoe Turner bring this up every couple of months or so?

[peb]

OK, I'll cast the initial dissenting opinion.

Q: Did you not know what the position paid when you ran for office?

Q: Did you not know how many hours would be involved in conducting the business of the office when you ran?

If either of your answers are "No" then I submit that you were woefully ill-prepared to accept the position. You raised and spent money to buy (sorry, that's what it is) a position, not knowing that you'd be over-worked and under-paid?  GET OUT!  I don't want you as my councilor; I find your ability to make good decisions highly suspect.

Perhaps the pay scale should be adjusted.  It does seem that given the duties and responsibilities, $18K/yr isn't much compensation.  However, I think it should be done in such a way that no councilor can benefit from a raise while in office - only the successor to the councilor.  They knew (or should have) what the position paid when they decided to run and knew (or should have) how many hours they'd have to put in. Running for office, winning the election, and then whining about being over-worked and under-paid makes me lose all respect for that person.

Put this into "real life" (to me, politics just ain't real life). I want a job, I spend money for a resume, a suit, haircut, manicure, etc. to impress my prospective employer enough to hire me.  If I've done my research, I should know what the position pays and my duties and responsibilities.  I get hired and then start to whine about being over-worked and under-paid.  My employer, I'm sure, will offer me a solution and it won't be a raise.

Councilors: don't like the pay?  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

peb

[Wrinkle]

I didn't originate it, but did think it a good idea to tie Councilor pay to the mean City of Tulsa wage (not MSA). IIRC, that's around $28K, or perhaps $32K. US Census would have the figure.

It would provide some incintive to do things which raises that, like more, better paying jobs.

It's incorrect to call and/or consider this a 'part-time' position any more than it would be to consider County Commissioners part time.

Wherever they go, whatever they do, they are City Councilors. Besides, the actual amount of work and responsibilities are not part time.

This salary, IMO, was intentionally set low to make it impossible for those who could not afford the rate to run for office. If it were higher, it would enable a lot more people to be Councilors instead of those who would not depend upon that income.

I'm all for it, even if it's $40K.

[Wrinkle]

Peb, by law, any raises apply only to successors to the office. Though, that could be the same councilor if they win the next election.

[Conan71]

County commissioner is a full-time position, so comparing the pay of the two isn't very relevant.

When the city council form of government was adopted, it was envisioned that a city counselor position would be part-time.  Looking in from the outside, it does seem to be a position that requires a sizeable consumption of a person's discretionary time.  I could see it being a 30 to 40 hour a week proposition.  It's not like being on the council of a town with 1000 people.  Assuming a counselor spent 40 hours a week with city business, that means they are earning $9.00 an hour.  Pretty low pay for important decision makers with a lot of responsibility.

I don't think a raise is out of the question for the job they are required to perform.  What's a fair amount?  Hard to say.  

Does anyone think we should have full-time city counselors?

[Wilbur]

It's incorrect to call and/or consider this a 'part-time' position any more than it would be to consider County Commissioners part time.

When Tulsa had a commission form of government, those positions were elected and considered full time, just as the county commissions' positions.  When Tulsa voted to change the form of government to a councilor form of government, the positions changed to part time, and have been considered part time ever since.  

Those city councilors who choose to make this their only job and make it a full time job by the number of hours they work, do so at their choice.  Those councilors who have other full time jobs and work lower hours at their city councilor positions, also do so at their own choosing.

If Tulsa wants to make these job full time, I could go either way with it, but then require them to be at their office full time, not 5 or 10 hours a week.

To say a city councilor is always a city councilor is no different then a firefighter always being a firefighter.

[nsugrad_05]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichae

I seem to be in the minority that people in city government should be paid what they are worth.

I agree they should be paid what they are worth, $3.00 per hour should about do it. []

[sgrizzle]

While I think they're underpaid, I'm not sure if doubling their pay is reasonable. They aren't earning a living wage, but I thought it was assumed that councilors had other jobs.

[rwarn17588]

I'm with grizzle on this. I think a raise is warranted, but it's extremely foolish on Jack Henderson's part -- especially when the city budget is tight -- to want to double his pay and expect to receive any public support for it.

His proposal should have been much more modest.

[peb]

A couple of other random thoughts on the subject.

If the councilor's pay is tied to raises given other city employees, should it be based on the unionized or non-unionized pay raises?  

Should the councilors be required to take pay cuts when other city employees are forced to?

Is it a conflict of interest if the councilor's pay is tied to the increases of the city employees?  Wouldn't there be a built in incentive to see the pay scale grow?

It seems one of the councilors was rather vocal about pay raises given the Mayor's at-will staff.  Where does this same councilor stand now that the Council has its hand out?

I take exception to the statement that a larger salary would entice "good people" to take the job (pardon me while I laugh).  OK, I'm back.  In my opinion, our current mayor is many times more qualified and effective than her predecessor and she draws an infinitely smaller salary - $0.00 at last report.

Even if by law, a pay raise will only apply to a succesor in office, it does apply if the sitting councilor gets re-elected.  What I was trying to say is that it should NEVER apply to a sitting councilor, current or successive terms. It should only apply when a new person fills the office.  As I recall, some of our part-timers are making a bit of a career for themselves.

Nope!  Show me what ya got, boys!  Show me a good study, make a good case for a raise, gimme a good index to tie it to, don't do anything to exempt you from the rest of our employees, and make it effective only to whomever fills your position when you vacate it; you just might get me to buy into it.

peb