Surprise, Surprise, The City Is Running Out Of $$$

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:That's a tough deal.  Tulsa is #2 on the list of sales tax remitters to the state, yes?  The state is seeing record oil/gas tax revenues.

The state and city should be looking into what programs are non-essential and how fat the agencies are that are providing those services.  Problem is, both political parties like to be benevolent to their own pet projects with public funds.  Cutting government spending is a pipe-dream.

I have been looking at it though not from the percent we get, but that consumption has grown exponentially since 1971.  I do understand that with that consumption has come quite a bit of infrastructure improvements (i.e. the ever-expanding 71st St. retail corridor).  My understanding is that the third penny sales tax has covered those infrastructure improvements.

Sounds like our Tulsa legislators in OKC need to take notice and try to make something happen on getting the state to drop a penny on the sales tax or remit it back to the city.  However, to counter-balance, I'd guess they'd raise personal income tax.

The way I figure it, it's still going to be a tax increase for me, either they will get it based on my income or my consumption.  I view consumption taxes as voluntary.  If I save it, I don't get taxed on it, though I do get taxed on the interest.

Again, what I find frustrating is that every year, the conservatives yell for areduction in income taxes.  This year some propose reducing income tax to 4.65% by 2009.  http://www.normantranscript.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_029091823.html.
 If the state can afford to lose that much revenue, why not look to the sales tax?  I am not advocating the reduction, I just am frustrated that the republican senators, who pride themselves on being anti-tax, are in reality only anti-income tax.

As for sales tax being voluntary, it's not voluntary when you have to buy food and clothing.  On the other hand, when you have to buy an airplane, I understand the state doesn't ask for sales tax.

I view sales tax as voluntary to the extent that you can choose to buy electronics or other goods like clothing via mail order where no tax is collected.  Depending on what the item is, if your total tab is over $100, shipping is usually cheaper than sales tax and in the competitive world of on-line merchandising there are more and more free shipping offers.  

Call me unpatriotic for buying from out of state and not contributing sales tax on some items, but it's my discretionary income and until the state figures out a way to truly enforce tax collection on out of state purchases, myself and thousands of other Oklahomans will continue to do so.

I can also choose to buy store brands vs. name brands or buy a cheaper meal at a restaurant, or choose to stay home and eat my store brand food and reduce the gross amount of sales tax revenue I'm turning over to the state.

[cannon_fodder]

A perfect example of what happens when taxes are too high... it becomes worth while to avoid them.  If sales tax was 6% it probably would be worth avoiding.  And when tax hits as high as it is on *some* items (tabacco, alcohol) true black market turn up.  As much as 20% of cigarettes sold in Canada are on the black market because the tax is so high.  High taxes end up funding criminals.

Hell, in many Nordic countries where tax rates are insanely high much work is done by barter.   Now that's good for the economy...

[Chicken Little]

Oh, yeah, thanks Conan.  Internet Purchases...yet another bleed on Tulsa's revenue:  

Tulsa relies heavily on sales tax.  Since 1971:

1) The State has taken 4.5 cents
2) The County has jacked over 1 cent

So, these guys have effectively gobbled up any buffer that there may have been for the city to raise additional revenue.

Also,
3) The legislature has created hundreds of sales tax exemptions
4) People are buying more and more stuff on the internet

These are direct drains on sales tax revenue.

Start adding up the costs that have outpaced inflation (health insurance, energy, and costs of building materials like steel and concrete, [which have tripled in the last five years]), and it very much is not the same situation as it was in the past.

Finally, according to estimates, Tulsa has lost population since 2000.  Yet they still have to try and maintain the infrastructure to those empty houses.  If they can't, then more will leave.  I believe they call that the "death-spiral".  How bad can it get?  Know anybody from Detroit?

Somebody's got to get a handle on this.  Sure, trim all the fat you can, but in the end, it ain't even a fair fight.

[YoungTulsan]

Look at the news about the South Tulsa Toll bridge.  I think the city now sees this as a quick money grab.  Drooling over projections like "$900 million in tolls over the next 75 years" with the intent of financing some of today's problems at the exepense of having a toll on a road that should be free public infrastructure.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Look at the news about the South Tulsa Toll bridge.  I think the city now sees this as a quick money grab.  Drooling over projections like "$900 million in tolls over the next 75 years" with the intent of financing some of today's problems at the exepense of having a toll on a road that should be free public infrastructure.

The city is getting desperate, no doubt about it.  And every property owner and local business in town should be paying close attention to what happens next...or doesn't happen, for that matter.  

As for the toll bridge, nothing's "free" in this world.  In this case, I'd much rather have the users pay for the thing.  If they don't want to pay the toll, then they should move to Tulsa.

[shadows]

The permanent Tulsa bureaucracies practice on the golden rule "Keep the public confused."   They play this game with the voters every election.   The bonds voted for capital improvements are assessed as property taxes and the more than 7 million dollars collected in sales taxes monthly, is quoted only as a 1 cent sales tax.

The some 14 million dollars monthly collection is referred to as a 2 cent  tax for operations.  There is the intertwining of more millions of dollars all being assembled in the general fund.  Still the bottom line is refereed to as a little 3 cent sales tax the city collects.

The city councilor is quoted in the papers as saying " But I do think we need to take advantage of ever possibility for revenue". Now to those that look for simple statements this should have been reduced to words that explain to the public such as: "We need to take advantage of ever possible way to add to the tax burden on the working poor in support of non-essential city operations".

One should look at the Storm Water Fee on the water bill that was to be only $1.75 monthly as an illustration when the door is open just a little bit.   Yes,  we have not had a general rainfall over the water shed but we have had local flooding.

[Conan71]

'Nuther question.  Where do the hotel taxes go to which are collected in the city?  The city, county, or state?

Lower population in Tulsa?  Still people come to Tulsa from Owasso, Sand Springs, Sapulpa, Broken Arrow, Jenks and other outlying areas for dining and shopping.  If it weren't for the stupidity of our city fathers, the aquarium and the retail development it spurred on the north side of the bridge might be collecting sales tax for the city of Tulsa instead of Jenks.

As far as retail shopping for the average schmoe, where are the sales tax exemptions?  I get that there are exemptions for re-sellers (who will ostensibly collect sales tax on an item unless it is sold and shipped out of state), non-profits, and end-use for manufacturing (that one is basically an incentive for a company to have a larger payroll and to generate more corporate income).

Maybe I was brought up as too much of a pragmatist.  I don't hit my boss up for a raise every time I decide I want a new good or service which is not in my present budget and which I really could probably live without.  If I decided I want a butler and gardener, it's not incumbent upon my boss to indulge me.

The city needs to learn to live within it's means.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

'Nuther question.  Where do the hotel taxes go to which are collected in the city?  The city, county, or state?

Good question.  Mostly to the Metro Chamber...and they spend it on metro stuff.  That deal has always smelled like eggs to me.  If it's Tulsa's money, it should be kept in Tulsa.  You will hear no groaning from me if that deal were to be "modified".

quote:Lower population in Tulsa?  Still people come to Tulsa from Owasso, Sand Springs, Sapulpa, Broken Arrow, Jenks and other outlying areas for dining and shopping.

 That's what the estimates say, and that's what shows up in Martinson's report, too.  As for the outlying communities, surely you have noticed the trend.  20 years ago everybody had to come to Tulsa to shop, but now every suburban town has huge retail areas.  Owassans have their own Target, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Mervins...so they don't shop here as often.  It worked for a long time, but now that model is history.

quote:If it weren't for the stupidity of our city fathers, the aquarium and the retail development it spurred on the north side of the bridge might be collecting sales tax for the city of Tulsa instead of Jenks.

No argument here...you're right.  It was shortsighted.

quote:As far as retail shopping for the average schmoe, where are the sales tax exemptions?  I get that there are exemptions for re-sellers (who will ostensibly collect sales tax on an item unless it is sold and shipped out of state), non-profits, and end-use for manufacturing (that one is basically an incentive for a company to have a larger payroll and to generate more corporate income).

Don't have a complete list, I'll look.  But here's something I Googled from the Oklahoma Municipal League.  Just this year, there are five new exemptions proposed.  Two new 3-day sales tax holidays, an exemption for "Blue Star Mothers", over-the-counter drugs, and groceries.  I don't think all of these are bad, but that's not really the point.  These decisions are being made by legislators who aren't at all concerned about taking money out of cities' pockets.

quote:Maybe I was brought up as too much of a pragmatist.  I don't hit my boss up for a raise every time I decide I want a new good or service which is not in my present budget and which I really could probably live without.  If I decided I want a butler and gardener, it's not incumbent upon my boss to indulge me.

The city needs to learn to live within it's means.

Pragmatist? Or masochist? There's another term for trying to live on dwindling means, it's called starvation.  What, exactly, is extravagent about having to pay three times as much for concrete as you did five years ago?

[Conan71]

I drive by the retail sprawl in Owasso frequently, and I'm quite well aware of the growth in Broken Arrow.  However, I don't see a whole lot of vacancy or hard times along the 71st Street corridor on Tulsa's side of the property line either.  96th & Delaware is experiencing it's own retail boom.  Speaking of Broken Arrow, why didn't Tulsa annex all the property out to 145th E. Ave. years ago when B.A. still had a population of 10,000 and still hadn't grown very far east?

Randi Miller made a pretty valid point in the Tulsa Whirled this morning that the county has a $60mm budget and manages to balance it, the city has a $550mm budget and should be able to do the same.  I understand the city has to supply much more in the way of manpower for water and sewer, law enforcement, and fire fighting/EMS.

It just frustrates the crap out of me hearing of politicians slipping in pay raises for trusted friends and advisors and other elected officials saying they are under-paid when they are asking hourly employees to sacrifice and they aren't managing the money they already have very well.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I drive by the retail sprawl in Owasso frequently, and I'm quite well aware of the growth in Broken Arrow.  However, I don't see a whole lot of vacancy or hard times along the 71st Street corridor on Tulsa's side of the property line either.  96th & Delaware is experiencing it's own retail boom.

That's a pretty biased sample, don't you think?  71st is the busiest place in the region.  I could similarly ask you to draw conclusions about Tulsa retail based on what's (not) happening at Eastland Mall.  But the simple truth is that retail growth will chase population growth, and that population growth is moving further away from Tulsa.  As the region spreads outward, the benefits of regional growth for Tulsa will diminish.  Do you disagree with this?

quote:Speaking of Broken Arrow, why didn't Tulsa annex all the property out to 145th E. Ave. years ago when B.A. still had a population of 10,000 and still hadn't grown very far east?

I dunno.  Why did Tulsa build them the Haikey Creek Sewer Plant with our own money?  That's what really allowed them to grow as quickly as they did.  That's some old-school Good 'Ole Boy crap...Inhofe was mayor at the time...ask him.

quote:Randi Miller made a pretty valid point in the Tulsa Whirled this morning that the county has a $60mm budget and manages to balance it, the city has a $550mm budget and should be able to do the same.  I understand the city has to supply much more in the way of manpower for water and sewer, law enforcement, and fire fighting/EMS.

Speaking of Good 'Ole Boys.  I'm starting to think that Miller couldn't find a feather in a hen house.  She's not really the best person to be telling Tulsa, or anyone else, what they "should do".  

quote:It just frustrates the crap out of me hearing of politicians slipping in pay raises for trusted friends and advisors and other elected officials saying they are under-paid when they are asking hourly employees to sacrifice and they aren't managing the money they already have very well.

That is completely acceptable to me.  In fact, I don't disagree with that sentiment.  But beyond the empty rhetoric you get from people like Miller, there are some very real and systemic problems with the way cities are funded in this state.

Miller has very little to brag about.  A lot of people think the County keeps sloppy books and they've simply had enough surplus cash to cover up the blemishes.

[YoungTulsan]

Monty Python shows how the City of Tulsa operates:



Hospital Administrator: Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.

[Everyone in the room applauds]

Hospital Administrator: Thank you, thank you.

[Wilbur]

I view sales tax as voluntary to the extent that you can choose to buy electronics or other goods like clothing via mail order where no tax is collected.

So you're saying you don't submit your 'use' taxes to the city as required by law and you lie on your state income taxes when it asks about purchases made by phone or over the internet.

You might want to learn the phrase "hey bubba, pass the soap."  It comes in handy in prison.  I'm confident your tax accountant would tell you those are felonies.  But, hey, no big deal because you saved a couple bucks!

[shadows]

The most misconstrued concept is that the tax code exempts sales on the internet.   Even if you buy an item in China then you are required to pay the use tax in lieu sales taxes on it as the point of delivery.  It is obligatory on the part of the purchaser to remit the use tax to the OTC on all purchases over the internet.  We are taxing ourselves in bankruptcy and telling the citizens it is the open door to prosperity.  

Revenue=taxes paid by the working poor.    Government employees rebate to the taxing structure a portion of the taxes received (Wages) from the funds generated by the working poor.

The free lunch has been removed from the top of the bar long ago.    

[shadows]

deleted

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

I view sales tax as voluntary to the extent that you can choose to buy electronics or other goods like clothing via mail order where no tax is collected.

So you're saying you don't submit your 'use' taxes to the city as required by law and you lie on your state income taxes when it asks about purchases made by phone or over the internet.

You might want to learn the phrase "hey bubba, pass the soap."  It comes in handy in prison.  I'm confident your tax accountant would tell you those are felonies.  But, hey, no big deal because you saved a couple bucks!

Let's see, how do the state and city enforce these laws?  How many people in Tulsa buy stuff off eBay and Amazon who don't report it?  You'd have about 1/3 of the city population to prosecute.  State-wide, our prison system would have to make way for about 500,000 new beds to account for everyone in the state of Oklahoma who doesn't report use taxes to local or state authorities.  Those laws are total B.S.

I find it very hard to believe that there are many people with a computer who don't do mail order.