Tulsa vs Suburbs (schools)

[azbadpuppy]

As a product of Jenks Public Schools I can honestly say I would never subject my own childred to that school district. I believe the district is over-hyped academically and the focus on athletics is obsessive and creates an unbalanced environment. I actually moved to the Northeast to finish my high school career after going to Jenks since Kindergarten and I was at least a good year behind my counterparts academically in that part of the country.

The focus at Jenks is money and status (oh yeah, and football). For years it struggled as a small town school district with growing pains and as the wealthy suburbanites moved in and changed the landscape forever, the divide between the haves and the have-nots widened and tensions mounted. It is a school where kids driving Jaguars look down their noses at working class kids from the 'wrong side of the river'. If you have ever seen 'The Outsiders', that story could have been written about Jenks. I remember in 8th grade we had to have a school assembly to deal with discrimination and bullying against kids that weren't as priveledged and who wore the wrong kind of clothes. Socially it is exclusionist, elitist and as snobby as it gets. Academicaly I certinly was not impressed (the wrestling coach taught english!) but if you are all about sports then it's very competitive- in every sense of the word.

One positive about Jenks are the extra curricular activities offered. It has top-rated drama, theater, and choir departments and of course sports sports sports.

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

I can't speak from experience but only as an outsider from the Tulsa school district, but my personal perceptions of the Jenks schools, and Union too for that matter, are much the same as you have described.

I remember when I was in high school at Nathan Hale in the early 1970s, we all thought the kids from Edison and Memorial were a bunch of rich, stuck-up snobs.  The kids at Rogers and East Central probably thought the same thing about us at Nathan Hale!  The kids at Washington, McLain, Central & Webster, we thought they were from another planet!  There was also Charles Mason High School at the time, but it was so new then that we had no opinions formed about them.  Jenks, Union, Owasso, Bixby, they were just small-town hicks to us then, not even in our league, or state football class (4A at that time).  Economic/social class will always be on the minds and influence the behavior of teenagers.

Any TulsaNow members out there that attended Mason High School?  As I recall, it only existed for about 4-5 years then the building was sold off (to the Tulsa Police Dept.?)

[saintinthecity]

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

BTW, what's up with the grocery tax?

In my opinion, Tulsa public schools have no more problems on a per capita basis than Jenks, Union, BA, just more students and school buildings so more publicized "problems."  The suburban school districs are no saints and have had the same problems as TPS has had in the past.  Even private schools are not totally safe havens for kids, although they like to picture themselves as such.

The grocery tax - Oklahoma applies sales taxes to most all goods that are sold in the state, clothing and groceries included.  Some items are exempt such as prescription drugs and motor vehicles, but vehicles have their own "excise" taxes.  Services, such as repair shops, doctors, lawyers, etc. are not subject to sales taxes, YET.  Oklahoma real estate taxes are relatively low, and the state income tax is pretty low too.  There are no county or city income taxes.

Government is going to get the money it wants some way, either sales, property, income taxes, use taxes, license fees, whatever.  On the whole, Oklahoma is probably somewhere in the middle of all states on a total tax burden basis.  I too find sales tax on groceries rather odious, as it is very regressive and hurts the poor the most.  But you can bet that if they make groceries exempt from tax, some other new tax will most certainly take its place.

My wife tried to make the same argument about Oklahoma being cheaper (we moved here from Fort Worth). Our property tax was $5200 / yr on a $190k house. While the same house in TPS will have a $1800 or so tax, I have never paid a state income tax in my life. If you make $100k / yr that eats up the the "savings". And don't get me started on the $80 in tolls I pay each month [V]

[saintinthecity]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

Thanks for your well thought out and informative resonses.

Property taxes are higher and I have not been convinced it is worth it.

where did you hear that?  When we were looking at houses, everything was higher in BA tax wise.  Thats why we settled in Jenks.

oh and when the husband fights his inlaws he always loses.

I was comparing TPS to Jenks.

[saintinthecity]

Originally posted by Porky

Ok, I got my helment on so you all can start the throwing of the rocks. [B)]

I would suggest Jenks, Broken Arrow or Owasso.

All 3 have good school systems. Jenks is the wealthy suburb, Broken Arrow has the most to offer and Owasso is absolutely great for a smaller school system.

jmo [

I don't dispute that all three have good school systems but WHAT makes them better than TPS? How does BA have the most to offer when the High School has 2000 students in 2 grades?

[saintinthecity]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

As a product of Jenks Public Schools I can honestly say I would never subject my own childred to that school district. I believe the district is over-hyped academically and the focus on athletics is obsessive and creates an unbalanced environment. I actually moved to the Northeast to finish my high school career after going to Jenks since Kindergarten and I was at least a good year behind my counterparts academically in that part of the country.

The focus at Jenks is money and status (oh yeah, and football). For years it struggled as a small town school district with growing pains and as the wealthy suburbanites moved in and changed the landscape forever, the divide between the haves and the have-nots widened and tensions mounted. It is a school where kids driving Jaguars look down their noses at working class kids from the 'wrong side of the river'. If you have ever seen 'The Outsiders', that story could have been written about Jenks. I remember in 8th grade we had to have a school assembly to deal with discrimination and bullying against kids that weren't as priveledged and who wore the wrong kind of clothes. Socially it is exclusionist, elitist and as snobby as it gets. Academicaly I certinly was not impressed (the wrestling coach taught english!) but if you are all about sports then it's very competitive- in every sense of the word.

One positive about Jenks are the extra curricular activities offered. It has top-rated drama, theater, and choir departments and of course sports sports sports.

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

Good ammo. Thanks.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

BTW, what's up with the grocery tax?

In my opinion, Tulsa public schools have no more problems on a per capita basis than Jenks, Union, BA, just more students and school buildings so more publicized "problems."  The suburban school districs are no saints and have had the same problems as TPS has had in the past.  Even private schools are not totally safe havens for kids, although they like to picture themselves as such.

The grocery tax - Oklahoma applies sales taxes to most all goods that are sold in the state, clothing and groceries included.  Some items are exempt such as prescription drugs and motor vehicles, but vehicles have their own "excise" taxes.  Services, such as repair shops, doctors, lawyers, etc. are not subject to sales taxes, YET.  Oklahoma real estate taxes are relatively low, and the state income tax is pretty low too.  There are no county or city income taxes.

Government is going to get the money it wants some way, either sales, property, income taxes, use taxes, license fees, whatever.  On the whole, Oklahoma is probably somewhere in the middle of all states on a total tax burden basis.  I too find sales tax on groceries rather odious, as it is very regressive and hurts the poor the most.  But you can bet that if they make groceries exempt from tax, some other new tax will most certainly take its place.

My wife tried to make the same argument about Oklahoma being cheaper (we moved here from Fort Worth). Our property tax was $5200 / yr on a $190k house. While the same house in TPS will have a $1800 or so tax, I have never paid a state income tax in my life. If you make $100k / yr that eats up the the "savings". And don't get me started on the $80 in tolls I pay each month [V]

Oklahoma is not necesarily cheaper in total taxes, about in the median for total tax burden of all 50 states.  Texas has no income tax, OK does.  Texas has exhorbitant property tax, OK has cheap property tax.  Six of one, half dozen of another.  Government is going to get its funding, the only difference is in the methods.  
Oklahoma recently lowered the top state income tax rates, and bills are in the legislature to further decrease the top tax rate to the 5.5% range.  I personally question this, because I belive that progressive income taxes are the fairest form of all taxation.   But just to let you know...

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

Thanks for your well thought out and informative resonses.

Property taxes are higher and I have not been convinced it is worth it.

where did you hear that?  When we were looking at houses, everything was higher in BA tax wise.  Thats why we settled in Jenks.

oh and when the husband fights his inlaws he always loses.

I was comparing TPS to Jenks.

oh well no kidding. and compare infrastructure in the Jenks district compared to tps.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

As a product of Jenks Public Schools I can honestly say I would never subject my own childred to that school district. I believe the district is over-hyped academically and the focus on athletics is obsessive and creates an unbalanced environment. I actually moved to the Northeast to finish my high school career after going to Jenks since Kindergarten and I was at least a good year behind my counterparts academically in that part of the country.

The focus at Jenks is money and status (oh yeah, and football). For years it struggled as a small town school district with growing pains and as the wealthy suburbanites moved in and changed the landscape forever, the divide between the haves and the have-nots widened and tensions mounted. It is a school where kids driving Jaguars look down their noses at working class kids from the 'wrong side of the river'. If you have ever seen 'The Outsiders', that story could have been written about Jenks. I remember in 8th grade we had to have a school assembly to deal with discrimination and bullying against kids that weren't as priveledged and who wore the wrong kind of clothes. Socially it is exclusionist, elitist and as snobby as it gets. Academicaly I certinly was not impressed (the wrestling coach taught english!) but if you are all about sports then it's very competitive- in every sense of the word.

One positive about Jenks are the extra curricular activities offered. It has top-rated drama, theater, and choir departments and of course sports sports sports.

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

sounds like you were the dorky outcast who always dressed in black.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

As a product of Jenks Public Schools I can honestly say I would never subject my own childred to that school district. I believe the district is over-hyped academically and the focus on athletics is obsessive and creates an unbalanced environment. I actually moved to the Northeast to finish my high school career after going to Jenks since Kindergarten and I was at least a good year behind my counterparts academically in that part of the country.

The focus at Jenks is money and status (oh yeah, and football). For years it struggled as a small town school district with growing pains and as the wealthy suburbanites moved in and changed the landscape forever, the divide between the haves and the have-nots widened and tensions mounted. It is a school where kids driving Jaguars look down their noses at working class kids from the 'wrong side of the river'. If you have ever seen 'The Outsiders', that story could have been written about Jenks. I remember in 8th grade we had to have a school assembly to deal with discrimination and bullying against kids that weren't as priveledged and who wore the wrong kind of clothes. Socially it is exclusionist, elitist and as snobby as it gets. Academicaly I certinly was not impressed (the wrestling coach taught english!) but if you are all about sports then it's very competitive- in every sense of the word.

One positive about Jenks are the extra curricular activities offered. It has top-rated drama, theater, and choir departments and of course sports sports sports.

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

sounds like you were the dorky outcast who always dressed in black.

We can always count on you for intelligent, well thought out replies.

[Porky]

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity


I don't dispute that all three have good school systems but WHAT makes them better than TPS? How does BA have the most to offer when the High School has 2000 students in 2 grades?

The schools are newer and safer. And when I say safer I'm not referring to all TPS. Also the teaching staff and the administrators are much better (overall) imo.

Other then Union (which is really BA) I haven't seen any new growth in schools within Tulsa. I think Memorial, Nathan Hale and BookerT are all good schools but they don't make up the overall picture of TPS.

Why can't TPS do what they did with BookerT to all of their High Schools? But instead they provide outdated schools like Rogers and gang ridden schools like McLain or what ever they call it now.

I see no problem with BA having that many students as long as they keep the classes small enough where a student can learn, which they do very well.

If I have a gripe with the TPS, it actually isn't with them but the city of Tulsa instead. How can we build an arena and spend almost $200 Million on it, how can they say we need a new city hall and presto they have it? And then not find away to build proper schools for the students in Tulsa. Just doesn't seem right to me. jmo

[DM]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

As a product of Jenks Public Schools I can honestly say I would never subject my own childred to that school district. I believe the district is over-hyped academically and the focus on athletics is obsessive and creates an unbalanced environment. I actually moved to the Northeast to finish my high school career after going to Jenks since Kindergarten and I was at least a good year behind my counterparts academically in that part of the country.

The focus at Jenks is money and status (oh yeah, and football). For years it struggled as a small town school district with growing pains and as the wealthy suburbanites moved in and changed the landscape forever, the divide between the haves and the have-nots widened and tensions mounted. It is a school where kids driving Jaguars look down their noses at working class kids from the 'wrong side of the river'. If you have ever seen 'The Outsiders', that story could have been written about Jenks. I remember in 8th grade we had to have a school assembly to deal with discrimination and bullying against kids that weren't as priveledged and who wore the wrong kind of clothes. Socially it is exclusionist, elitist and as snobby as it gets. Academicaly I certinly was not impressed (the wrestling coach taught english!) but if you are all about sports then it's very competitive- in every sense of the word.

One positive about Jenks are the extra curricular activities offered. It has top-rated drama, theater, and choir departments and of course sports sports sports.

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

When we first moved here we lived in the Jenks SD. My daughter went to the SE school for K and 1st grade. She absolutely hated it. Mid year during first year we were planning on buying a house somewhere and were looking. Then came the final straw. We had a meeting with the teacher and academically our daughter did great! However, she was not as socialable as the other kids. Because of that they wanted to keep her back. Mid year they were telling us this. They made no attempt to even suggest ways that we could help her with her social skills. After I voiced my objection and dissatisfaction with how they were handling this, we ended up moving to the Union Schools by March and immediately transferred her. The teachers at Union were told about her questionable "social skills" and less then a month at their school they did not know what they hell the people at Jenks were talking about. They said that she was very socialable and was still doing well in school. To this day we still live in the Union Schools and I have absolutely enjoyed having my daughter going there. She loves it and has made a ton of friends. Jenks had a father program that I really liked. But as for that, I have nothing good to say about the Jenks Schools.

They may be a good school. But our experience with them was not a good one.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by DM

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

As a product of Jenks Public Schools I can honestly say I would never subject my own childred to that school district. I believe the district is over-hyped academically and the focus on athletics is obsessive and creates an unbalanced environment. I actually moved to the Northeast to finish my high school career after going to Jenks since Kindergarten and I was at least a good year behind my counterparts academically in that part of the country.

The focus at Jenks is money and status (oh yeah, and football). For years it struggled as a small town school district with growing pains and as the wealthy suburbanites moved in and changed the landscape forever, the divide between the haves and the have-nots widened and tensions mounted. It is a school where kids driving Jaguars look down their noses at working class kids from the 'wrong side of the river'. If you have ever seen 'The Outsiders', that story could have been written about Jenks. I remember in 8th grade we had to have a school assembly to deal with discrimination and bullying against kids that weren't as priveledged and who wore the wrong kind of clothes. Socially it is exclusionist, elitist and as snobby as it gets. Academicaly I certinly was not impressed (the wrestling coach taught english!) but if you are all about sports then it's very competitive- in every sense of the word.

One positive about Jenks are the extra curricular activities offered. It has top-rated drama, theater, and choir departments and of course sports sports sports.

I feel the negative and elitist social environment at Jenks and its long term implications on the social adjustment of children far outweighs any positives the school might have.

TPS apparently has some excellent primary schools, and Washington H.S. is tops academically and is far more socially, economically and ethnically mixed than any of the suburb schools.

When we first moved here we lived in the Jenks SD. My daughter went to the SE school for K and 1st grade. She absolutely hated it. Mid year during first year we were planning on buying a house somewhere and were looking. Then came the final straw. We had a meeting with the teacher and academically our daughter did great! However, she was not as socialable as the other kids. Because of that they wanted to keep her back. Mid year they were telling us this. They made no attempt to even suggest ways that we could help her with her social skills. After I voiced my objection and dissatisfaction with how they were handling this, we ended up moving to the Union Schools by March and immediately transferred her. The teachers at Union were told about her questionable "social skills" and less then a month at their school they did not know what they hell the people at Jenks were talking about. They said that she was very socialable and was still doing well in school. To this day we still live in the Union Schools and I have absolutely enjoyed having my daughter going there. She loves it and has made a ton of friends. Jenks had a father program that I really liked. But as for that, I have nothing good to say about the Jenks Schools.

They may be a good school. But our experience with them was not a good one.

There are many families with similar experiences with the Jenks faculty and administration. My brother suffers from Autism, (which was not diagnosed until later when he was transferred to a school that actually cared about his well being) and when he was in Jr High at Jenks, one of his teachers was so frustrated by his "social skills" she actually made the entire class 'mock' him and laugh at him. This was her ignorant way of thinking that she could 'cure' him. Of course when my parents found out and were rightfully outraged, the administration at Jenks simply labeled my parents as 'overprotective' and did nothing.

I am sad to hear it sounds like not much has changed. Jenks is a Goliath of a school system and is run like a factory- spewing out kids with very little regard for the individual.

[saintinthecity]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity

Thanks for your well thought out and informative resonses.

Property taxes are higher and I have not been convinced it is worth it.

where did you hear that?  When we were looking at houses, everything was higher in BA tax wise.  Thats why we settled in Jenks.

oh and when the husband fights his inlaws he always loses.

I was comparing TPS to Jenks.

oh well no kidding. and compare infrastructure in the Jenks district compared to tps.

I'm new here. Please elaborate. What would I be getting for my additional tax dollars in Jenks and how does it benefit me compared to TPS?

[saintinthecity]

quote:Originally posted by Porky

quote:Originally posted by saintinthecity


I don't dispute that all three have good school systems but WHAT makes them better than TPS? How does BA have the most to offer when the High School has 2000 students in 2 grades?

The schools are newer and safer. And when I say safer I'm not referring to all TPS. Also the teaching staff and the administrators are much better (overall) imo.

Other then Union (which is really BA) I haven't seen any new growth in schools within Tulsa. I think Memorial, Nathan Hale and BookerT are all good schools but they don't make up the overall picture of TPS.

Why can't TPS do what they did with BookerT to all of their High Schools? But instead they provide outdated schools like Rogers and gang ridden schools like McLain or what ever they call it now.

I see no problem with BA having that many students as long as they keep the classes small enough where a student can learn, which they do very well.

If I have a gripe with the TPS, it actually isn't with them but the city of Tulsa instead. How can we build an arena and spend almost $200 Million on it, how can they say we need a new city hall and presto they have it? And then not find away to build proper schools for the students in Tulsa. Just doesn't seem right to me. jmo

Thanks for your response. So I guess if I choose Memorial, Booker T or the Brookside school (can't remember the name) districts I have some ammo to support me against living in BA or Jenks.