KTUL: Drillers moving downtown?

[Rico]

Whats Up Ruf... your team lose a game or something...?

Usually your more alert when you post.

Not asking for a "plug nickel"...

Downtown will do better building itself than as some 2025 log rolling event.

As far as a TIF for Downtown.. Last mention I heard of that was from Mr. Williams and "Wally"...

Have a Nice Day..!

Why don't we exchange verbal compliments when there is a little more of a challenge.?

What think you about the "Chess Game" Land acquisitions DT......?

Whoever can say Mate first will have the other with not quite enough land to do their plan.
And they will have to either sell or get in line with what is happening....
ay..!

[}:)]

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Rico

"postive direction"

Well; if the population waits until all projects are complete....

I'm afraid, all they can hope for, is that they have enough cash in their pockets to be tourists in the Downtown area...


Marketing a life style...? Interesting...

Gee, Rico... you've just described why most Tulsans from those "other" parts of the city won't vote a plugged nickel for "downtown only" projects...

Downtown subsidized housing for the rich is not a very popular idea here in east Tulsa.

And we fear that when your Utica Square-clone downtown TIF projects are complete, we will not be welcome.

We are TULSANS, not tourists...

Don't you East Tulsan's have your own revitalization plans?  If a large developer wanted to do something in the East side and asked about a TIF do you not think we would consider it like we would in downtown? I would, I know the east side needs help too.  

Might there be a reason these developers are considering downtown versus the east side?

It seems that both the east side and downtown are suffering from similar things.  People and jobs moving away.

What scenario is most likely?

A vibrant bustling downtown would help to bring about growth in the rest of the city, including the east side.

A vibrant bustling east side would help to bring about growth in the rest of the city, including downtown.

Are young people from the suburbs who want to leave the suburbs and have a more urban, city lifestyle, more likely to be attracted to Tulsa to live in, a revitalized east side or a revitalized downtown area?

I say we work on making both better.  But many people, including developers, are going to see downtown as having the more attractive potential and as a key to making Tulsa a more competitive city.

[jdb]

Ageree with USR about any more tax monies on DT.
I dopted that after Main Mall sidewalk was done and then the Whirled ripped it back up to raze the corner. Was the last straw for me.

rico - The burbs had to be marketed...hell, they really need it now to keep the selling homes in Owasso. Is it just the shift back to DT that woke you up?

Bop you in the beezer later, jdb

[cannon_fodder]

I hope people that dont frequent downtown dont somehow think we (most of us) are plugging for a massively subsidized downtown for the few.  I would greatly prefer a private downtown for the masses.

And don't be hating on the tourists, they can help pay the bills.  I have no delusions that we will be an Orlando, but OKC is to the point where conferences and tournaments WANT to come to town because there members can have an entertaining long weekend there.  That's money for everyone because they turned their downtown into something worth visiting.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Don't you East Tulsan's have your own revitalization plans?  If a large developer wanted to do something in the East side and asked about a TIF do you not think we would consider it like we would in downtown? I would, I know the east side needs help too.  

Might there be a reason these developers are considering downtown versus the east side?

Most of east Tulsa is revitalizing on its own.  My old bowling alley (Tiffany Lanes) is now a latino mini mall... Executive Mall has lotsa ethnic businesses... the housing editions at Magic Circle, Columbus Elem, etc have some "for sale" signs but have lots of people living there...  even those small crackerbox homes just south of Admiral between Sheridan & Memorial are mostly occupied... I just don't see boarded up homes -- possible exceptions are certain areas further east of Garnett/129th on Admiral and/or 11th St. but a TIF district wouldn't make a whole lot of sense there-- although a cool, well executed plan by a large developer for a "Historic Hwy 66" development would, in my opinion, be TIF worthy... although a youth center/community center somewhere around 21st & Garnett would make more sense at this point...

The "plug nickel" remark was not my opinion-- I personally think downtown TIF districts should either "XXXX or get off the pot" and stop serving as pork/entitlements... how 'bout something bigger that will truly spur development???...

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that many of the folks I've talked to don't trust downtown activists and downtown-only politicians for a variety of reasons, and those reasons date back decades... and they certainly don't trust the rhetoric about "public spaces" in a project like The Channels that in their opinion wouldn't accomplish anything other than give Tulsa's trust-fund babies a new place to play...

These same east Tulsans travel to OKC/Bricktown and would LOVE to see that kind of thing in Tulsa but fear their taxes would be spent on The Forum 2; Electric Boogaloo complete with The Magic Pan... Tulsa quiche was to the 70s as Tulsa sushi is to the 00s...

I know, how 'bout we open a cool taxpayer funded upscale downtown supermarket and call it McCartney's?!? [:O] (inside joke)...

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

It seems that both the east side and downtown are suffering from similar things.  People and jobs moving away.

Tulsa's Oil Capitol of the World days are long gone but there are plenty of energetic 20-somethings living in east Tulsa and working there at DirectTV, Cox, Cingular, US Cellular, etc, etc... and if they're anything like previous generations of young Tulsans, many are likely at some point in time to sign a lease for a downtown or Riverside Dr. apt...

Of course, these same 20-somethings were in diapers back in the day when my Tulsa Roughnecks were hosting the New York Cosmos at Skelly... []

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
Are young people from the suburbs who want to leave the suburbs and have a more urban, city lifestyle, more likely to be attracted to Tulsa to live in, a revitalized east side or a revitalized downtown area?

I say we work on making both better.  But many people, including developers, are going to see downtown as having the more attractive potential and as a key to making Tulsa a more competitive city.

Young people from the suburbs can do any number of things... and they will.  But will they simply be passing through downtown as renters or will they at some point see a neighborhood of substance where they can live longer term?

And then there are all of us jaded adults who are sick of downtown pipedreams with little substance...

Vision 2025 passed... the Tulsa Project did not... older Tulsans where I live do not want a repeat of the 90s and are highly skeptical of downtown-only projects...

This is not an either/or situation.

Memories, like the corner of my mind...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90058&postcount=57

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124922&postcount=60
my opinions/responses are NOT the ones in boldface...

quote:The answers civic leaders keep coming up with is to give special projects to downtown/Riverside... a few crumbs to the northside and ALL-THE-ROADS-YOU-CAN-EAT to the southeast...

quote:Tulsa's downtown projects can be supported by everyone ONLY IF EVERYONE is included. OKC's bricktown has some smaller trendier places, some larger upscale restaurants... and a HOOTERS... Tulsa not only has been divided into different parts of town racially, it's also been very divided socially, and that, I think, is a much bigger factor than crime or racism as to why many Tulsans won't support upscale improvement projects for downtown...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Huh? Is this the same development ya'll been talking about going bankrupt? Why does KTUL not discuss that important fact?

I don't remember anyone using the word bankrupt.

A more accurate turn of phrase would be:  "a well constructed house of cards."

The big question is whether the Mayor of Tulsa will settle this in the best interests of the city or just allow both groups to ??

And if Global fails, will any self respecting out-of-state firm try to work with the city of Tulsa on downtown development again?

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Rico


"postive direction"

Well; if the population waits until all projects are complete....

I'm afraid, all they can hope for, is that they have enough cash in their pockets to be tourists in the Downtown area...


Marketing a life style...? Interesting...

Just because an area is successfully revitalized doesn't mean it becomes gentrified, although it does increase property values.  I'm not sure if you knew what I meant by "positive direction."  I was referring to demand for downtown apartments/lofts, etc.  The price of those apartments/lofts doesn't affect the aggregate demand for them.  The aggregate demand is affected by external factors, such as hip new downtown nightlife, large concert venues, new downtown grocery store, etc.  Those external factors shift the demand curve in the positive direction, meaning people who may have previously never considered living DT now want to live there.

Marketing lifestyles is commonplace for real estate developers.  The developers of Forest Ridge in Broken Arrow have done a lot of that.  The Utica Place developers use the well-known affluence of adjacent Utica Square and surrounding neighborhoods to assist in marketing their product.  On the grand scale, Tulsa should work on marketing itself as an urban city with unique cultural districts.  That is basically marketing a type of lifestyle.  Cities want to market a lifestyle that is attractive to a large mix of people, especially tourists and prospective move-ins.

[Wilbur]

Wouldn't this put a kink in the works for moving downtown?

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134294

And how do you sign a letter of intent but keep other options open?  Who on the other end signs such a deal?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Wouldn't this put a kink in the works for moving downtown?

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134294

And how do you sign a letter of intent but keep other options open?  Who on the other end signs such a deal?

Wow.  I mean . . . why???  Why are they stealing our ****, and who is letting them do it?  What the **** is the problem with this city!!!!!

[tulsa1603]

"Sources close to the Drillers tell The News On 6 the team has signed a letter of intent with developers to possibly move to Jenks. The News On 6 has also learned that the letter is non-binding, meaning the Drillers can continue to look at other options." - well that sure isn't a press release.  
OK, let them move to Jenks, but I say they can't use the name "Tulsa" Drillers.

Of course, I also think that this is a bunch of BS.  Much like the Bells move to Jenks, the downtown movie studio, the NASCAR track, the American, Brad pitt and Jenifer Anniston moving to Grand Lake, or any of the other gossip that we fall victim to every few months.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Wouldn't this put a kink in the works for moving downtown?

http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134294

And how do you sign a letter of intent but keep other options open?  Who on the other end signs such a deal?

"I promise that I don't promise to move to your development."  Why even sign anything??  Yet another rumor run amok.

[Kenosha]

You can thank Bill White for pimping his property to the highest bidder, Seayco for giving us a Wal-Mart instead of a baseball stadium, and Global Development partners for not having their financing in order for this...you can also thank the City of Jenks, who facilitated this project, which is being done by the same folks that brought you Bricktown.

Look, this may or may not be a done deal.  I would suspect the Drillers would at least wait until the River Vote takes place... but if these guys are going to build them a baseball park, why wouldn't they do it?  If you owned the team, what would you do?  They TRIED to come downtown...

quote:Billion-dollar Jenks development could lure Drillers from Tulsa


By STAFF REPORTS
8/20/2007  6:21 PM
Last Modified: 8/20/2007  6:27 PM

JENKS -- A group of local entrepreneurs has unveiled plans for $1 billion development that could include a new home for the Tulsa Drillers.

The River District would be largest mixed-use development in the state and would include 852,000 square feet of high-end retail shopping as well as restaurants, and a variety of entertainment venues.

The more-than-300 acre site will also include 650 hotel rooms and a small convention facility.

A spokesman for the Drillers said the team has signed a non-binding letter of intent to move into a new stadium planned for the development, which would be just south of the Oklahoma Aquarium.

The facility would include a 7000-seat ballpark, developers say.

Team officials and developers say they will continue discussions about the team's possible more in the coming weeks.

The privately financed project is expected to hit the $1 billion mark in total investment dollars and create more than 4,000 permanent jobs and 7,000 construction jobs over the next five years.

[Renaissance]

Okay, I'm calm now.  I hope hope hope this is only a rumor.  I worked at Drillers Stadium as a youth--the franchise is close to my heart, and I would weep to see it leave town.  Further, I continue to hold out hope that they move downtown or to the river near downtown.  The Drillers moving adjacent to grazing pastures would be a brutal loss for the city's aspirations towards revitalization.

[Kenosha]

I will say this: If Jenks ever wants to get anything from the City of Tulsa again in terms of supporting major capital improvements, such as, say, a Light Rail line from Downtown to Jenks, then they better back off.  Downtown Tulsa's continued suffering in no way helps Jenks.  Owasso gets this.  Jenks better get it, and get it FAST.

[TheArtist]

It seems to me that the Jenks development is going to happen more surely than any East End or Tulsa Landing development at this time.

I dont mind the Drillers going to Jenks and that development. I think it will definitely increase the number of people attending the games. They will be well suported there. And folks, its practically Tulsa anyway. No out of towner would know that there is some  psychological line designating "thats them over there, this is us over here".

If I were the Drillers and was thinking of moving to a new location. Had been considering some sort of East End deal but kept watching the mess that we have all seen happening, continuing along with no real progress. Then was approached by what is a more likely to happen development.... Why not say ok, and
yet still leave some room just in case some sort of East End deal comes along that may be better. I think the original east end deal would have had better facilities and stuff around it, but if its not going to happen. Why continue to place all your eggs in that basket? The prize goes to the swift and the strong.

This, and many other things, are going to have to start sinking in to inner Tulsa developers and property owners that Tulsa is not the only kid on the block anymore. The suburbs are SERIOUS contenders for eeeeverything. Figure that out.

Those old interests and property owners once could hold out and wait for better times and think that people would then pay premium to redevelop the area once the "boom" started again. They have to realize that now people have absolutely no need to develop there and can just turn their nose up at them and build big developments in one of the suburbs.