Moving City Hall

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

they cant scrape it you TARD.  it sits on top of the city plaza complex.

Gimme a break, of course they can. Tie in the hotel with the plaza or remove a portion of the plaza. It's just a concrete deck.

quote:
Furthermore, that location is HORRIBLE.  if heavenly hospitality would do the towerview location because of the bus station you think a hotel operator is going to locate NEXT TO THE COURTHOUSE in the middle of BUM PLAZA with KNOWN sex offenders and other criminals filtering in and out?  That place is damaged goods.

That location is OUTSTANDING. It would be the closest hotel to BOTH the arena and the convention center.

And I hate to point this out to you, but the convention center is already adjacent to "bum plaza" as you call it. If anything, a hotel would improve the situation -- more life, more eyes on the street, private security on site 24/7.

quote:
I would rather one of the rental car places occupy the entire OTC than the city.  it paints a HORRIBLE picture for businesses looking at Tulsa as they see the city in the newest highest tech building and then they have to choose from **** office space.

If one of the car rental places wanted the ice cube, they would've bought it. It's been on the market for awhile. And what's worse for the city image, having City Hall in a new, technologically advanced building or in a crumbling, decrepit pit?

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by intellerits the same concept (in theory) as thermal windows, minus the argon.

the magnifying glass concept is the only redeeming quality, since you could see the blood spattering the windows when the mayor eviscerates one of her minions.

the thing that disgusts me is they think moving into a high tech building will help them get ahead on the tech curve....hell they wouldn't know what to do with such a high tech building.


I submit an alternate proposal.  Move the downtown library in there.  for now spare me the hoo ha about UV light damaging the books.  You would give that library an instant parity with the Hardesty library in terms of technology.  If the place is doomed to fall into public space, at least let it be that.  The library could use the machine room downstairs to store emense volumes of digital data.  I believe the library would also rival the one in OKC at that point.  More people would use it to because you move it away from the bums and drudges that hang out at the plaza.

prospective businesses would look at that and think "wow this town really cares about education" and would be more likely to move here.  Instead of "wow the buracracy took over the best real estate in downtown".

I don't disagree with you about the need for a library to "wow" visitors--a library should be awe inspiring, much as Carnegie built.  Unfortunately, the financial incentives for the city would be lost there, since the library isn't owned by the city. Plus the other two prime real estate areas (river & near the east end) couldn't be sold off.  If we were simply trying to occupy a big building, and not increasing revenue for the city, your proposition wouldn't be bad.

[pmcalk]

Here is some information about the efficiency of the building:

quote:
The 15-story vertical campus features 52,000-sf floor plates, allowing office floors to function as self-contained mini-campuses. Designed by HOK, the energy-efficient facility uses natural light, 16-foot-high ceilings, and a vertical "solar well" circulation core that acts as a return air plenum, natural ventilation shaft, and thermal buffer. At the center of the building is a secure three-story, 47,000-sf Network Operations Center and the Executive Center .
-Tradeline

[inteller]

well, I would even compromise to move the city services currently outside of city hall into part of that building along with the library.  that way they can sell off much more attractive properties along the river.  but taylor and her minions have to stay in the current city hall.

[Conan71]

I do think Inteller is correct that the old city hall property would not be attractive to a hotel owner with a library, police station, a district courthouse, and federal building directly adjacent to it.  I think it would give it too much of a "penal" feel. [xx(]

Secondly, that parking garage has been falling apart for years, that cost would get stuck up the tax payer's tail pipes.

[stymied]

[quote
they cant scrape it you TARD.  it sits on top of the city plaza complex.  Furthermore, that location is HORRIBLE.  if heavenly hospitality would do the towerview location because of the bus station you think a hotel operator is going to locate NEXT TO THE COURTHOUSE in the middle of BUM PLAZA with KNOWN sex offenders and other criminals filtering in and out?  That place is damaged goods.

I would rather one of the rental car places occupy the entire OTC than the city.  it paints a HORRIBLE picture for businesses looking at Tulsa as they see the city in the newest highest tech building and then they have to choose from **** office space.
[/quote]

Yes, they can scrape it.  In fact they need to rebuild the entire parking deck.  Have you ever been under there?  The thing leaks like a sieve and has sustained all sorts of damage.  If you look under there near the convention center there are patches galore.  Apparently they do not allow ambulances to drive on the deck because it is so weak.

Also for what it's worth, One Technology Center, despite its glass fascade, is very likely the most efficient building downtown right now.

BTW, did anyone know that the Staubach Co. is Roger Staubach's company?  http://www.staubach.com/index.asp
He has all sorts of ex Dallas Cowboys working for him including Emmit Smith.
http://www.staubach.com/ProfessionalSearch/Professional_Profile.asp?ID=1843

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Do recall where the land donated is? Also, if they sell...does the money generated from the real estate add up to enough to build on the donated land?

Denver & the BA Expressway. The land was donated by an individual who will likely develop the land around the library, once it is built. The library system took themselves off of vision2025 and tried to pass a bond issue shortly after the passage of Vision2025. It was fairly well supported but did eventually fail. A repackage and revote is expected.

One prime reason they lost imho is the fact they continued to ignore BA and have not put a decent sized library there. Even west tulsa has an (albeit small) regional library but Broken Arrow does not. This affront effected enough voters to make the bill fail.

Selling the library building will help with some costs, but doubtful it will cover everything.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Do recall where the land donated is? Also, if they sell...does the money generated from the real estate add up to enough to build on the donated land?

Denver & the BA Expressway. The land was donated by an individual who will likely develop the land around the library, once it is built. The library system took themselves off of vision2025 and tried to pass a bond issue shortly after the passage of Vision2025. It was fairly well supported but did eventually fail. A repackage and revote is expected.

One prime reason they lost imho is the fact they continued to ignore BA and have not put a decent sized library there. Even west tulsa has an (albeit small) regional library but Broken Arrow does not. This affront effected enough voters to make the bill fail.

Selling the library building will help with some costs, but doubtful it will cover everything.

There have been multiple plans for the land at Denver and the BA... Going back to when Mayor Savage and the City purchased the property, Bowen's, The Liquor store, and the other Bar where located on... At that time... it was to have been a Park..

One sticking point was the eyesore of a building still remaining... That... bit the Library bill in the backside as well..

IMO that is not a preferable location for a Central Library .. That being said the "eyesore" is still standing and to my knowledge has never been addressed.

The Library is one very large issue that would need to be dealt with in the plan for moving City Hall..

Who Knows..... Maybe they already have it figured out...

[cannon_fodder]

I would change my mind IF, and only IF, the city can prove:

1) there is an actual need for more space.  How much office space do cities our size usually utilize and how can we do better than them?

2) the numbers work so consolidation is actually cost effective.  $82,000,000.00 is a lot of money to spend upfront, I would like to know how the city intends to save money while servicing that kind of debt.

3) and finally, I need to see these often mentioned "interested parties" that are apparently in line to develop the the TWELVE (12) city properties that will be abandoned in this move. I want to see them sign a dotted line committing them to do so.  

I do not think any of this will happen since Austin apparently uses less space than we do, $82,000,000 is a ton of debt to service and no one is developing the abandoned property we have sitting around currently.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I would change my mind IF, and only IF, the city can prove:

1) there is an actual need for more space.  How much office space do cities our size usually utilize and how can we do better than them?

2) the numbers work so consolidation is actually cost effective.  $82,000,000.00 is a lot of money to spend upfront, I would like to know how the city intends to save money while servicing that kind of debt.

3) and finally, I need to see these often mentioned "interested parties" that are apparently in line to develop the the TWELVE (12) city properties that will be abandoned in this move. I want to see them sign a dotted line committing them to do so.  

I do not think any of this will happen since Austin apparently uses less space than we do, $82,000,000 is a ton of debt to service and no one is developing the abandoned property we have sitting around currently.

Well, Austin's city hall doesn't house all the city services like they are proposing to do here....In Austin, a lot of services are still spread out around downtown.

But I will go on record as opposed to this.  I don't see a benefit to consolidating all services into one place.  the only thing I can imagine is you have to have multiple maintenace staffs.  But I think that certain city services are better served in different locations.  For instance, I like the building permit center over on Greenwood with it's easy access.  It was a pain when it was located in the basement of the current city hall.  I say keep city hall where it is, just remodel the eyesore.

[YoungTulsan]

Some people havent gotten the fact that the City of Tulsa will not be paying $80 million for the building.

$80 million is the "market rate" for a building of that size.

$82 million was quoted as the "starting price" for us building a brand new consolidated City Hall.  Leucadia bought out WCG (Wiltel) when it went bankrupt.  After acquiring all of these assets, there are some that they would just be better off cutting their losses on.  Like a giant building in Downtown Tulsa sitting mostly empty.  That is a money loser for them, so they are willing to negotiate a deal.  They are smart enough to realize that no one but the City of Tulsa is going to have a need to buy an entire building of that size in Tulsa in the forseeable future (decades?) - It makes sense for them to get the building off their hands by striking a reduced price deal for the City of Tulsa to get that money losing property off of their hands.

Tulsa will pay "pennies on the dollar" I've heard, but who knows the exact ballpark they are going for here.  Not 80 million dollars.

They are doing a feasibility study to see if we will actually save MORE money than we are going to spend on the building by consolidating things, creating more efficiency, and more productivity.  Selling off the numerous current city buildings to for redevelopment.  The proposal as I understand it, is win-win-win-win-win all around.  Leucadia gets rid of a building that no company in Tulsa will fill in the forseeable future.  Tulsa gets a first class city hall, which to non-downtowners will improve their impression of the city and downtown over what they currently experience in the dump now known as city hall.  City of Tulsa employees get better morale by working in better conditions.  Different parts of city government can work together better by being housed in the same facility.  Productivity will go up.  Perhaps even allowing for staff reduction in some areas.  Hotels, river development, east end development, etc will eventually create more tax revenue.

We get all of this for an extremely reduced price due to Williams Communications erecting a building at the peak of inflated technology valuation projections that ended up not being needed after everything crashed and burned.  So instead of getting nothing but misery out of their demise, we get a little something of value.

Can you tell I'm for it?

[YoungTulsan]

Another thing about the deal that looks like good business strategy by Taylor's office, is the 4 month option to purchase they have right now.  We've already got them agreed to a certain price.  The feasibility study might prove the property to be worth MORE to us than Leucadia thought it was when they settled for that price.  If we ran out and did a study beforehand, Leucadia could use it against us to raise their asking price.  We could save several million dollars this way, because even if it looks like the benefit to us is worth more than what they WERE going to sell it for, they've already agreed to that price and must honor the deal.

I'm just curious to find out how low they got them to settle the price for.  The "feasibility study" is just going to confirm what Taylor wants to do, using whatever numbers neccesary to paint that picture.  If I worked at City Hall I would start organizing and packing my stuff now just so the move goes smoothly.

[RecycleMichael]

I also think there will be better worker productivity when the workers mostly work in the same building. Today a meeting with the permits people, the engineering people and the policy people requires two thirds of them to get in their car and travel.

I also see a big boost in worker morale. The current building has had mold issues and needs updating. The new one is a new shiny glass tower. There are not many restaurants near the current city facilities, but the new city hall will be near at least half a dozen nice places to eat.

I would think that the land beneath the current city hall could be as valuable as any other parcel in town. I also think the city can get out of propoerties at 7th and Houston, the west bank property and the Hartford building very well financially.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

[A repackage and revote is expected.

yeah, lets just keep bringing it up and RAMMING it down taxpayers throats until we finally catch all the south Tulsans and suburbanites off on spring break and get it passed.  THAT'S DEMOCRACY!

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

... had mold issues and needs updating.

the same thing could be said about the city government itself.