Big development on Cherry St.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Doesnt the price of the land + the price of building materials + the price of labor make a building 2 stories or less unprofitable in desirable areas like Cherry Street?  People posting on a forum about their utopia vision of 15th street doesn't change the mathematics of a profitable investment, which is what any developer will build when they redevelop properties.

I mean, I guess developers could build brand new 2 story quad plexes with 600 sq ft. apeice, but they'd have to charge like $1500/month to turn a profit over a reasonable period of time.

Somehow I don't think that would work.

Do I care about maximizing profit? No. Do you know why Cherry Street is desirable? It sure isn't by realtors and developers coming here to maximize profits, I'll tell you that much. If you don't like the fact the neighborhood prefers a maximum of three story buildings, then go somewhere else.

Actually, it is becoming desirable exactly because developers are coming in, and regardless of how they feel about the neighborhood, their number one priority is to make a profit.  When I say developers, I mean anyone that comes to Cherry Street to open a business, not just those who build new developments.  No one's talking 10- or 15-story high-rises here.  All that was mentioned was the idea that buildings of a certain size aren't profitable in an already desirable area.

"The neighborhood prefers 3 story buildings" ?  While it's true that most of the buildings are only one or two, there apparently isn't some type of neighborhood association or code that can (or has) block taller buildings from being built since the Arvest and Stillwater buildings are on Cherry Street.  I'm not saying that people don't prefer them shorter, but nothing's being done to prevent people from building that way.  If the neighborhood does prefer them 3 stories or less, they can do something about it.

How long have you been in Tulsa? You speak with such expertise on subjects you show such little knowledge about.

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by Double A
How long have you been in Tulsa? You speak with such expertise on subjects you show such little knowledge about.

I've lived in Tulsa my entire life.  I haven't claimed to be an expert in anything, so I don't know what you're talking about.

No, I don't know the whole story behind the Arvest and Stillwater buildings.
I do know, though, that regardless of whatever battle may have taken place with the Arvest and Stillwater buildings, the neighborhood lost and for whatever reason, the buildings were still built, to the pleasure of some and to the obvious disdain of others.

What's to stop other people from building gargantuan buildings if the neighborhood can't or if the people don't care, or if the people that exist outside of this forum and live in the area actually like the developments?

I don't know how saying that or defending OurTulsa is claiming to be an expert.

To me, the developers of a neighborhood aren't just those who develop lofts, build new structures, etc.  The development of a neighborhood occurs also simply when a business is opened, when buildings are renovated, etc.

I don't see how it's so unconscionable to think that buildings of a certain size aren't profitable in an already desirable area with rising land costs.  I don't see how any of my statements are so outlandish or that make me appear as an expert.  I'm a Tulsan that cares about what's going on who thought that maybe I should become involved in a discussion.

It's no wonder more people in Tulsa refrain from joining in any discussion and subsequently lose interest and don't care, with the people out there who only point fingers, gripe, refute everything but their own ideas and put others down.

Without a spirit of cooperation and collaboration and realizing that ultimately everyone here wants better for Tulsa, nothing is ever going to change or be done.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

I thought YP's wanted to live, work, and play downtown. Isn't that what all the Vision 2025 developer pork for downtown luxury housing is for? It seems that everybody wants to live in Foreclosureville these days, to me. I wonder who will be left holding the bag when this fuzzy lending for overpriced real estate/housing trend and credit co dependency collapses?

Define "pork". You mean the loans the developers have to pay back, creating a revolving fund for more public-private investment in downtown housing?

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

And I'm all for people profiting, I'm just not for people coming here only thinking about maximizing profits without consideration for the neighborhood.

You say I don't care because it's not my money, I say they don't care because they don't live here.

Good stuff. Pretty much nailed it.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Double A

I thought YP's wanted to live, work, and play downtown. Isn't that what all the Vision 2025 developer pork for downtown luxury housing is for? It seems that everybody wants to live in Foreclosureville these days, to me. I wonder who will be left holding the bag when this fuzzy lending for overpriced real estate/housing trend and credit co dependency collapses?

Define "pork". You mean the loans the developers have to pay back, creating a revolving fund for more public-private investment in downtown housing?

Government subsidized luxury housing. I'm glad these historic buildings are being saved and reused, but other than that, I don't see the public benefit in awarding incentives to build housing that I don't think most Tulsans can afford, so developers can maximize their profits. I guess my beef is that the vast amount of V2025 money for downtown housing was primarily used to benefit one specific socioeconomic demographic. To me, this seems like pork.

In other cities they focus on incentives for or require mixed income housing developments when tax dollars or other tax backed incentives are involved. I think this is a better approach that will benefit all taxpayers at all levels, and therefore would not be considered pork.  

[akupetsky]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

quote:Originally posted by Double A
How long have you been in Tulsa? You speak with such expertise on subjects you show such little knowledge about.

I've lived in Tulsa my entire life.  I haven't claimed to be an expert in anything, so I don't know what you're talking about.

No, I don't know the whole story behind the Arvest and Stillwater buildings.
I do know, though, that regardless of whatever battle may have taken place with the Arvest and Stillwater buildings, the neighborhood lost and for whatever reason, the buildings were still built, to the pleasure of some and to the obvious disdain of others.

What's to stop other people from building gargantuan buildings if the neighborhood can't or if the people don't care, or if the people that exist outside of this forum and live in the area actually like the developments?

I don't know how saying that or defending OurTulsa is claiming to be an expert.

To me, the developers of a neighborhood aren't just those who develop lofts, build new structures, etc.  The development of a neighborhood occurs also simply when a business is opened, when buildings are renovated, etc.

I don't see how it's so unconscionable to think that buildings of a certain size aren't profitable in an already desirable area with rising land costs.  I don't see how any of my statements are so outlandish or that make me appear as an expert.  I'm a Tulsan that cares about what's going on who thought that maybe I should become involved in a discussion.

It's no wonder more people in Tulsa refrain from joining in any discussion and subsequently lose interest and don't care, with the people out there who only point fingers, gripe, refute everything but their own ideas and put others down.

Without a spirit of cooperation and collaboration and realizing that ultimately everyone here wants better for Tulsa, nothing is ever going to change or be done.

People do get their back up when they constantly hear the same thing - that it is not possible to revitalize neighborhoods without destroying them (whether that destruction is immediate or gradual).  There is no example that I am aware of where the developer has come to the neighborhoods to cooperate or collaborate on a project.  If he/she did, you can almost certainly figure out a way to make it work for both.  The Arvest Bank issue is one example of what happens when the developer insists on doing it his/her way without consultations.  Although the bank went in after a long period of time and much contention, it created a significant amount of bad will in the surrounding neighborhoods and throughout the city politic at large.  I don't think it would have gone in had the neighborhoods filed an expensive court appeal.  And that was the "easy" case of a building on a corner of 15th and Utica that replaced a fenced-in animal grooming shop opposite a large bank building, a run-down gas station and a new cancer clinic (none of which had any real historical significance).

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Double A

I thought YP's wanted to live, work, and play downtown. Isn't that what all the Vision 2025 developer pork for downtown luxury housing is for? It seems that everybody wants to live in Foreclosureville these days, to me. I wonder who will be left holding the bag when this fuzzy lending for overpriced real estate/housing trend and credit co dependency collapses?

Define "pork". You mean the loans the developers have to pay back, creating a revolving fund for more public-private investment in downtown housing?

Government subsidized luxury housing. I'm glad these historic buildings are being saved and reused, but other than that, I don't see the public benefit in awarding incentives to build housing that I don't think most Tulsans can afford, so developers can maximize their profits. I guess my beef is that the vast amount of V2025 money for downtown housing was primarily used to benefit one specific socioeconomic demographic. To me, this seems like pork.

In other cities they focus on incentives for or require mixed income housing developments when tax dollars or other tax backed incentives are involved. I think this is a better approach that will benefit all taxpayers at all levels, and therefore would not be considered pork.  

yeah, I can hear what you're saying. You make a good point.

At least Sager's project has several price points, and the Mayo Hotel will be in the same ballpark per square foot. It's not a perfect strategy, but get a track record of success downtown on the higher end and it's easier to get financing on the mid-priced projects.

I wouldn't be shy about expressing this viewpoint in the manner you did above. Might be a good strategy for reinvestment of the funds that come back in from loan repayments.

[Double A]

Yeah, Sager seems to be the exception to the rule.

[metro]

quote:
You say I don't care because it's not my money, I say they don't care because they don't live here.
[/quote]
MetroLofts does live in Cherry Street District.

[deinstein]

I was talking about developers in general.

[Double A]

Tulsa Investigation Leads to Class Action Suit

HUD reached a $450,000 settlement with Tulsa, Okla., companies McGraw Davisson Stewart Realtors, Closings of Tulsa, Builders Title and several of their affiliates. Now, those companies are finding themselves targeted again, this time by homebuyers who feel that they were shafted by the AfBAs.

The plaintiff who filed the suit is Eric M. Bohne, vice chairman of Security Bank, who purchased a home through McGraw Davisson Stewart and Closings of Tulsa. The suit is seeking class action status and states that those eligible for inclusion in the class are "all persons who purchased real estate and paid closing fees through the defendants, which were in violation of RESPA."

The suit names as defendants Closings of Tulsa, Closing and Escrow Co. of Tulsa, McGraw Davisson Stewart, Residential Sales Associates, Builders Services, Builders Title and Escrow,

Robert Dailey, Helen Dailey,

John Woolman, Joseph McGraw, Peter McGraw, Darrell Jenkins, and other parties not yet named.

In related news:

Lofty expectations: Metro Lofts plans 29 units, possibly more in
Journal Record, The (Oklahoma City),  Mar 1, 2006  by Kirby Lee Davis

Metro Lofts LLC has two complexes under construction and three in the permit stage for Tulsa's historic Cherry Street region.

We're constantly trying to get more land, said owner

Amanda Dailey

, who hopes to expand her building plans. Particularly in the Cherry Street area.

Formally based in Houston, Dailey's three-person operation will soon relocate its headquarters to Tulsa. Dailey herself has already moved to the Midtown region, overseeing work of the Cherry Street Lofts complex at 14th and Rockford and the Troost Lofts at Cherry Street, just north of 15th Street on Troost Avenue. Contractor Trigon Inc. of Tulsa manages daily construction, slated for May completion, with Metro Lofts serving as its own builder.

Dailey projects November completion for three proposals before the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission: the Quincy Lofts at Cherry Street, the St. Louis Lofts on Cherry Street, and the Trenton Lofts at Cherry Street. Trigon also will supervise these projects, designed by MDGI of Houston and One Architecture of Tulsa.
Advertisement

The four at Cherry Street projects follow the same pattern - packages featuring six or seven lofts on a 0.3-acre block of land, all named for the crossing streets intersecting N. 15th Street. With the three lofts in the original Cherry Street Lofts project, Dailey's company will add 29 lofts to the Tulsa community by November, totaling 52,000 square feet, including garages. She estimated the construction value at $100 a square foot.

Dailey noted that this part of Tulsa's Midtown region, also known as Cherry Street, the historic name for 15th, is already zoned for townhouses, making her loft construction easier to permit. Because storage units connect all the homes, they fit the requirements for townhouses.

The units under construction range from 1,900 to 2,400 square feet, offering two to three bedrooms and bathrooms. Prices will range from $299,000 to $329,000.

Those under planning will focus on three-bedroom offerings, with three-and-a-half baths. Their prices have not been determined.

Dailey, a Tulsa native returned to roost, hopes to build as many as we can in the region. While she admits some parts of the construction area just east of Peoria Avenue are a little seedy, the safety and community feel of the thriving neighborhood makes her renewal projects a personal pleasure. She has lived there herself since starting construction and enjoys the Cherry Street atmosphere.

They don't have any modern lofts here. They have the downtown projects that they're doing, she said, referring to several different proposals for Tulsa's downtown region, but no Midtown lofts. I just think that in Tulsa, there's great potential for Midtown development.

Kirby Lee Davis is Tulsa bureau chief of The Journal Record.

[TheArtist]

I originally bought my home through Mc Graw, and went through Closings of Tulsa.  Whats an AfBA ?

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by metro

quote:
You say I don't care because it's not my money, I say they don't care because they don't live here.

MetroLofts does live in Cherry Street District.



"As they would say in my native home town....

What else is rolled into that cigarette you are smoking.... Horse Manure...?"

[}:)]

[ost]

Double A,

What does a class action lawsuit have to do with development?  What is your real name?  Does double A stand for double a**hole?

[mlofts]

If you are incenuating that Metro is me it is not.  I do live in Cherry Street, specifically 1412 S Troost if you would like to come by and discuss Cherry Street at length.  I previously lived at 1412 S trenton in unit 2 of a 4 plex.  I dont understand why these blogs start to get so angry after about page 1.  I would like to say a few things about our progression, our goals etc.  We built 13 homes last year in Tulsa, 10 of which had siding exterior - hardie siding which is compressed cement and a lifetime product.  I thought it was a great suggestion by my architect, from Houston, who thought that it would stand up best over time to weather elements etc.  I was immediately slammed over the looks of siding and realized that this is something tulsans do not like.  I have not used siding, nor will use siding on anymore of our Tulsa spec products.  We now have 24 homes being built this year.  The exteriors will be:  Brick and Stucco, Standing seam metal and stucco, Shake and lap board (Bungalow townhomes), all Stucco or some other version.  We took your advice and changed what we were doing.  Of the 24 homes we are building this year, only 6 are 3 stories and the rest are 2 stories.  Only 6 are over 1700 sq ft.  Only 6 are over 285k and they have wonderful sweeping views of downtown which is sometimes highly in demand.  They are nestled between three different fourplexes and they fit in wisely by being all brick exterior.  The styles are: 6 modern all brick, 4 warehouse brick and block with walls of glass, 3 Bungalow townhomes, 10 metal 2 story units with softened stucco accents.  1 SFR Bungalow.  All 24 address the street with Balconies directly facing the main street on the street facing units (again thank you for the suggestion).  
Again, we took your advice and changed what we were doing.  I always eventually read the blogs and always appreciate your comments.  We are not trying to come to Cherry Street and change it.  If you will look at our recently updated website you will notice that we have just as many remodeled bungalows as we do homes for sale.  I love all types of architecture and since Tulsa had no modern housing options, modern seemed a good place to start.  I have tried extensively to purchase some of the run down apartments in the area for condo conversions and or fun remodels but have no luck as many of these owners are unrealistic of their proprties value.  Because of our lack of housing for people under 200k we have recently agreed to take on a 5 unit new construction project with appx 1100 sq ft each for mid 100s and we should have that plan on the website in the next 4 weeks.