Historic Preservation in Tulsa..

[AVERAGE JOE]

Historic Districts Are Good For Your Pocketbook

"Historic district designation provides protection from negative externalities. The economic value of this protection far outweighs the negative value of any use, maintenance or other restrictions placed by the ordinances. We know that the protection far outweighs the restrictions because the value jump is both economically and statistically significant."


Economic Impacts of Historic Preservation in Florida

"FINDINGS: Comparative Property Values Analysis

* Historic preservation helps to maintain property values in Florida.

* In at least fifteen of the eighteen cases studied, property in the historic district appreciated greater than in the non-historic comparison neighborhoods.

* No instance was found where historic designation depressed property values."


Planning for Historic Preservation

* Creation of local historic districts stabilizes, and often increases residential and commercial property values.

* Increases in property values in historic districts are typically greater than increases in the community at large.

[Double A]

Here are some resolutions adopted into the platform of the Tulsa County Democratic Party involving historic preservation:

A. We Support:

1. Establishment of prior review processes such as conservation districts, historic preservation districts, and neighborhood stabilization zoning, before demolition or development occurs in historic neighborhoods and places.

9. Preservation of the McBirney Mansion and open space in its historic state.

B. We Oppose:

1. Any destructive influences or actions in and around historic places.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I was at the meeting as well.  Here are some of my observations:

1.  The TPC is required to adopt and follow guidelines to remain a Certified Local Government (and hence receive money), which they did in this circumstance.

2.  The guidelines that they followed are based upon the Department of the Interior's guidelines.  Failure to follow the guidelines can jeopardize National Register Status.  The neighborhood agreed upon the guidelines when HP zoning was put into place.

3.  Fifteen volunteers comprise the TPC.  In addition to the hours they spend doing the commission's work, they are devoted to educating themselves about historic preservation.  They have training, reading materials, discussions, etc....  As far as I know, Mr. Walton has no expertise in historic preservation, has never attended (until now) a TPC meeting, and has never read any of the neighborhood guidelines.  That the BOA would take one man's opinion over the hard working volunteers of the TPC is a slap in their face.

4.  The BOA ruled that it would be an "undue hardship" to force the homeowners to remove their windows.  First, this was an appeal of a decision, not a variance--they were suppose to determine whether the TPC was in error.  Second, even if it was a variance, hardships cannot be self imposed.  That they replaced all of their windows without permission was their own fault.

My hope is that the BOA will at some point seek to learn more about historic preservation, what it means, and the tremendous economic asset it can be for our city.

If the BOA ruled improperly, i.e. a variance instead of finding that the TPC was in error, then somebody could appeal to District Court.  If the court agrees, the judge would likely return the case to the BOA for the proper type of decision.  Not sure what that would accomplish...

[TheArtist]

I really like the proposed new addition to the Mc Birney Mansion.  Any word on how thats progressing?

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I was at the meeting as well.  Here are some of my observations:

1.  The TPC is required to adopt and follow guidelines to remain a Certified Local Government (and hence receive money), which they did in this circumstance.

2.  The guidelines that they followed are based upon the Department of the Interior's guidelines.  Failure to follow the guidelines can jeopardize National Register Status.  The neighborhood agreed upon the guidelines when HP zoning was put into place.

3.  Fifteen volunteers comprise the TPC.  In addition to the hours they spend doing the commission's work, they are devoted to educating themselves about historic preservation.  They have training, reading materials, discussions, etc....  As far as I know, Mr. Walton has no expertise in historic preservation, has never attended (until now) a TPC meeting, and has never read any of the neighborhood guidelines.  That the BOA would take one man's opinion over the hard working volunteers of the TPC is a slap in their face.

4.  The BOA ruled that it would be an "undue hardship" to force the homeowners to remove their windows.  First, this was an appeal of a decision, not a variance--they were suppose to determine whether the TPC was in error.  Second, even if it was a variance, hardships cannot be self imposed.  That they replaced all of their windows without permission was their own fault.

My hope is that the BOA will at some point seek to learn more about historic preservation, what it means, and the tremendous economic asset it can be for our city.

If the BOA ruled improperly, i.e. a variance instead of finding that the TPC was in error, then somebody could appeal to District Court.  If the court agrees, the judge would likely return the case to the BOA for the proper type of decision.  Not sure what that would accomplish...

True, but who would take it to court?  Not the TPC--you would then have two boards at odds.  Who would the city attorney be instructed to represent?  Perhaps Maple Ridge neighborhood, but it is a lot to ask a neighborhood to hire an attorney and go to court.  At this point, I believe it is too late to file an appeal, and I think the best course is to simply hope that people learn something from this.

[Rico]

Originally posted by the Artist.

quote:

That interesting to know. I had never heard the term "non contributing" used before. And the "guidelines preserving the historic character of the individual home" is important as well.

Within an "Historic District"; during the inventory process done by the "National Trust", certain houses because of modifications are deemed "non-contributing", others because they have been retained in pretty much their original state are "contributing"..., and the third category is what is known as "stand-alone".... These structures are so unique that they would be considered "Historic" with or without the others in the District.

One item I have never understood about "HP Overlay"; the guidelines as they pertain to the Districts are written by the representatives from the Districts along with the assistance of the Preservation Commission.... Therefore.... what is OK in one District may or may not be OK in another.

[brunoflipper]

the latest twist in the tale is that as it turns out, it may not have been simply a case of ignorance...

somebody needs to check the date on the lambert's first application for a COA, not the one after the windows were installed... word on the street is they were actually rejected on more than one application before they installed the windows... but they did it anyway...

[OurTulsa]

It's too late to appeal the Board's decision to district court.  You, and any citizen or organization could file the appeal, would have to file with the court within 10 days of the decision; actually been there done that before and 10 calander days was the magic number.

[pfox]

quote: 9. Preservation of the McBirney Mansion and open space in its historic state.

B. We Oppose:

1. Any destructive influences or actions in and around historic places.

So would that include neglect?

[Steve]

I read the World article about the BOA overruling the Preservation Commission and found it quite interesting.  Myself and my neighbors are having a meeting tomorrow night (Thursday) with Ed Sharrer of the City Planning Department.  Mr. Sharrer has been doing an architectural survey of my neighborhood (Lortondale) for the Preservation Commission towards our application for inclusion on the National Historic Register.  I understand Mr. Sharrer is also involved in surveying Ranch Acres and Riverview for the same goal.

I will raise the subject at tomorrow's meeting and ask Mr. Sharrer for his opinions.  I can already assume what his opinion is, but it should make for some interesting discussion.

[RecycleMichael]

Ed Sharrer is a smart guy...way smarter than average.

Let us know what he says.

[Double A]

I agree. Ed is one of the good guys.

[Rico]

Originally posted by OurTulsa.

quote:

It's to late to appeal the Board's decision to district court. You, and any citizen or organization could file the appeal, would have to file with the court within 10 days of the decision; actually been there done that before and 10 calander days was the magic number.

This another part of the process that I have trouble with....

Even if you file an appeal..

And your appeal is upheld..

It goes back to the BOA and they rule in favor of the Preservation Commission.

Then what.?

What enforcement measures are in place to uphold the "HP Overlay Rules"..?

I know you would be able to have the Historic Trust remove their "contributing" status...

What else...?

Let's take the point one step further...

Originally posted by brunoflipper.

quote:

the latest twist in the tale is that as it turns out, it may not have been simply a case of ignorance...

somebody needs to check the date on the lambert's first application for a COA, not the one after the windows were installed... word on the street is they were actually rejected on more than one application before they installed the windows... but they did it anyway...

Bruno's post brings out a very strong point...

There are many loopholes to a set of rules that are not law

What exactly could be done to straighten this mess out...?

Anyone have a suggestion?

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

Originally posted by OurTulsa.

quote:

It's to late to appeal the Board's decision to district court. You, and any citizen or organization could file the appeal, would have to file with the court within 10 days of the decision; actually been there done that before and 10 calander days was the magic number.

This another part of the process that I have trouble with....

Even if you file an appeal..

And your appeal is upheld..

It goes back to the BOA and they rule in favor of the Preservation Commission.

Then what.?

What enforcement measures are in place to uphold the "HP Overlay Rules"..?

I know you would be able to have the Historic Trust remove their "contributing" status...

What else...?

Let's take the point one step further...

Originally posted by brunoflipper.

quote:

the latest twist in the tale is that as it turns out, it may not have been simply a case of ignorance...

somebody needs to check the date on the lambert's first application for a COA, not the one after the windows were installed... word on the street is they were actually rejected on more than one application before they installed the windows... but they did it anyway...

Bruno's post brings out a very strong point...

There are many loopholes to a set of rules that are not law

What exactly could be done to straighten this mess out...?

Anyone have a suggestion?

This is a topic that really gets me fired up...

Is it NOT law?  Is it not part of the zoning code?  Whenever I turn in a set of plans for work to be done in one of those areas, I don't get a building permit without a Certificate of Appropriateness as part of my package.

But you still pose a very good question.  I tried to get a screening wall excpetion for a client along Peoria.  Despite the fact that there are at least 10 examples of walls that are taller, closer to the road, and more line-of-sight obstructing than what we were proposing, we had to compromise and scale it back quite a bit to please the BOA.  I'm fine with that now that it's all said and done, because I believe in the process.  But my question is, what about all those other walls that were built either without permits, without special exceptions from the BOA, etc?  Who enforces?  Who says "You have to tear this wall down!"  Seems like no one.  If that's the case, what's the point of having rules at all??  Just to cause headaches for those of us that follow them?

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

Originally posted by OurTulsa.

quote:

It's to late to appeal the Board's decision to district court. You, and any citizen or organization could file the appeal, would have to file with the court within 10 days of the decision; actually been there done that before and 10 calander days was the magic number.

This another part of the process that I have trouble with....

Even if you file an appeal..

And your appeal is upheld..

It goes back to the BOA and they rule in favor of the Preservation Commission.

Then what.?

What enforcement measures are in place to uphold the "HP Overlay Rules"..?

I know you would be able to have the Historic Trust remove their "contributing" status...

What else...?

Let's take the point one step further...

Originally posted by brunoflipper.

quote:

the latest twist in the tale is that as it turns out, it may not have been simply a case of ignorance...

somebody needs to check the date on the lambert's first application for a COA, not the one after the windows were installed... word on the street is they were actually rejected on more than one application before they installed the windows... but they did it anyway...

Bruno's post brings out a very strong point...

There are many loopholes to a set of rules that are not law

What exactly could be done to straighten this mess out...?

Anyone have a suggestion?

It's law