Historic Preservation in Tulsa..

[pmcalk]

^Since obtaining a COA is required by the zoning code, failure to obtain one can result in penalties:

quote:Section 1502:
Any person, firm or corporation violating any provisions of this Code or failing to comply with any of its requirements, including violations of conditions and safeguards established in connection with grants of variance of special exceptions, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by imprisonment not exceeding 90 days, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Each day that a violation continues shall be deemed a separate offense.

However, once a party files a BOA appeal, that prevents the city from imposing any penalty until the BOA decides the appeal.  The TPC understandably attempts to work with homeowners, even when they fail to follow the law.  But it may be necessary for them to start looking towards enforcement methods, when people choose to ignore the law.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

^Since obtaining a COA is required by the zoning code, failure to obtain one can result in penalties:

quote:Section 1502:
Any person, firm or corporation violating any provisions of this Code or failing to comply with any of its requirements, including violations of conditions and safeguards established in connection with grants of variance of special exceptions, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by imprisonment not exceeding 90 days, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Each day that a violation continues shall be deemed a separate offense.

However, once a party files a BOA appeal, that prevents the city from imposing any penalty until the BOA decides the appeal.  The TPC understandably attempts to work with homeowners, even when they fail to follow the law.  But it may be necessary for them to start looking towards enforcement methods, when people choose to ignore the law.

Could you cite any case that this penalty has been enforced....

I was told recently... By a Lawyer that was connected..

"If you file for a demolition permit, in an Historic District, and the COA is denied...
I know of no action the City would take if you failed to wait the mandated 60 days..."

Demolition, strikes me, as a tad bit more serious of an offense...



From the Preservation Commission website

quote:
Historic Preservation Zoning

Historic Preservation Zoning districts are different from National Register districts, although they often overlap. Think of historic preservation zoning as local protection, whereas National Register listing is nationwide recognition. Local HP zoning provides limited protection to historic resources in local development matters, while National Register status provides limited protection only when Federal dollars are used.

Historic neighborhoods seek out historic preservation zoning to provide extra protection from inappropriate alterations and unsympathetic new construction. Generally, the neighborhoods that would qualify for HP zoning are those that would be eligible for the National Register of Historic Places. For example, all of Tulsa’s HP-zoned districts are also National Register-listed districts. However, listing in the National Register does not require that the neighborhood pursue local HP zoning.

I am not one that believes there should not be a method of protection for such Districts and buildings....

I think the system in Tulsa is in dire need of some serious attention. The direction it is heading is an "us vs. them" non functioning impasse.

[janle]

"I am not one that believes there should not be a method of protection for such Districts and buildings...."

So are you saying we should allow all the historic areas and buildings of town to be replaced by  developments like the Metro lofts and One Utica Place, Stillwater Bank and Arvest bank? Is this the true look of Tulsa? Does it reflect who we are and from where we have come?

[Rico]

^janie, I do not believe anything I have written is promoting any of the above mentioned things....

What I am attempting to do is to promote a dialogue that will bring about change...

The system, that is now in place, is not that different than many other communities throughout the country..

It needs to be improved upon...

The resources on this board are some of the most intelligent people in their fields..

We need to come up with some sort of a plan to make this system work better...

Once again.....

Ideas... Thoughts..... Suggestions....

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by janle

"I am not one that believes there should not be a method of protection for such Districts and buildings...."

So are you saying we should allow all the historic areas and buildings of town to be replaced by  developments like the Metro lofts and One Utica Place, Stillwater Bank and Arvest bank? Is this the true look of Tulsa? Does it reflect who we are and from where we have come?

I think he's IN FAVOR of the preservation districts if you read his statement closely.  But he, like me, is frustrated that it really has no teeth.  You can do what you want.  I haven't ever heard of a penalty being dealt, a non-conforming structure being modified, etc.  It simply has no enforcement as it is.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

^janie, I do not believe anything I have written is promoting any of the above mentioned things....

What I am attempting to do is to promote a dialogue that will bring about change...

The system, that is now in place, is not that different than many other communities throughout the country..

It needs to be improved upon...

The resources on this board are some of the most intelligent people in their fields..

We need to come up with some sort of a plan to make this system work better...

Once again.....

Ideas... Thoughts..... Suggestions....

Well, one solution would be to actually enforce the rules that exist.  I think the board as it is, is fine.  It's the enforcement of their decisions that is lacking.  Who enfroces, who is accountable?  If someone builds something that violates zoning code, rather than letting it go, you make them tear it down, you fine them, you do something to penalize them rather than just say "Oh well!"

[janle]

Rico, I completely read over the "not".

[pfox]

quote: Ed Sharrer is a smart guy...way smarter than average.

Let us know what he says.

Way smarter than the last guy who worked there. He was an idiot.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Ed Sharrer is a smart guy...way smarter than average.

Let us know what he says.

We had our neighborhood (Lortondale) meeting last night with Ed Sharrer concerning Lortondale and the National Register application process.  Turnout was about 30 people, which was great for our 3-yr old group.

Towards the end of the presentation, I raised the issue of the BOA/Preservation Commission controversy.  It wasn't directly pertinent to Lortondale at the present time, but I felt it was not too off-topic and wanted to hear his opinions.  I feel I may have put Mr. Sharrer on-the-spot so to speak, as he was there as an official representative of the Preservation Commission, not a private citizen, and he probably felt he was limited in what he could comment.  Anyway, he confirmed the basic facts of the case and that the BOA did in fact, have the legal authority to overturn the TPC decision.  I said I thought that appalling, and that I think the BOA should defer to the judgement of the TPC in matters of historic zoning enforcement, because the historic expertise lies with the TPC, not the BOA.  I asked Mr. Sharrer why the TPC did not pursue the matter through the courts, and he said that they considered it, but it would amount to the "city suing itself" and they decided the potential problems were not worth the effort in this case.  I then remarked that the violating homeowner may have "inside connections" with the BOA or friends in high places, to which we both shared a nervous laugh and then moved on.

Mr. Sharrer said that the TPC and BOA are scheduled for one of their ongoing joint meetings next week.  Apparently they are aware of each others duties and goals, and do not work in total independent isolation from each other.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

Originally posted by Rico

^
Well, one solution would be to actually enforce the rules that exist.  I think the board as it is, is fine.  It's the enforcement of their decisions that is lacking.  Who enfroces, who is accountable?  If someone builds something that violates zoning code, rather than letting it go, you make them tear it down, you fine them, you do something to penalize them rather than just say "Oh well!"

I am aware of two cases involving my neighbors (maple ridge). One was for removing the overhang of a roof and its supports. The owner honestly did not know of HP status and was elderly and poor. Her home was probably a "non contributing". They pressured her but it was never restored.

The other was a home near the subject house. The owners were forced to remove exterior shutters they added that were not approved. They were angry about it but they did it and then sold the house.

From first hand discussions with both owners I got the impression that they first try to enlighten and encourage. If that fails they begin to threaten. The stories begin to spread throughout the area then people take note. The "approved" signs in front of remodels are very powerful.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy



I am aware of two cases involving my neighbors (maple ridge). One was for removing the overhang of a roof and its supports. The owner honestly did not know of HP status and was elderly and poor. Her home was probably a "non contributing". They pressured her but it was never restored.

The other was a home near the subject house. The owners were forced to remove exterior shutters they added that were not approved. They were angry about it but they did it and then sold the house.

From first hand discussions with both owners I got the impression that they first try to enlighten and encourage. If that fails they begin to threaten.

And that my friend is exactly the response you will typically get from the majority....

I am afraid that the "Preservation" thing, in Tulsa, has become one of exclusivity.... rather than inclusive in nature.

I would like to know what is so exclusive about having an appreciation of Historical Architecture...?

You mean that if I live in South Tulsa in what many term a "McMansion".... I would not be able to grasp the concept of "Historical Preservation"...?

A friend gave me a copy of the "Coalition Of Historic Neighborhoods" by-laws....

Unless this has been changed....? You are required to live in a minimum of a National Trust Recognized Historic District.... To be a member...

Do they have a secret handshake as well..?  []

I could understand Officers being required to have a vested interest in an Historic District....

But other than that this is textbook isolation by choice.

For example.... Take any number of people in Tulsa that have an avid interest in Historic Architecture and the Preservation there of.....

They are not involved in the process because of it's exclusivity...

That my friend is a very sad statement..

That is the "us vs. them" mentality that will continue to be the broken cog in the wheel.

p.s. the copy of the info I saw on COHN was some time ago... If it has changed I apologize in advance...

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

And that my friend is exactly the response you will typically get from the majority....

I am afraid that the "Preservation" thing, in Tulsa, has become one of exclusivity.... rather than inclusive in nature.

I would like to know what is so exclusive about having an appreciation of Historical Architecture...?

You mean that if I live in South Tulsa in what many term a "McMansion".... I would not be able to grasp the concept of "Historical Preservation"...?

A friend gave me a copy of the "Coalition Of Historic Neighborhoods" by-laws....

Unless this has been changed....? You are required to live in a minimum of a National Trust Recognized Historic District.... To be a member...

Do they have a secret handshake as well..?  []

I could understand Officers being required to have a vested interest in an Historic District....

But other than that this is textbook isolation by choice.

For example.... Take any number of people in Tulsa that have an avid interest in Historic Architecture and the Preservation there of.....

They are not involved in the process because of it's exclusivity...

That my friend is a very sad statement..

That is the "us vs. them" mentality that will continue to be the broken cog in the wheel.

p.s. the copy of the info I saw on COHN was some time ago... If it has changed I apologize in advance...

So what you're saying is that anybody should be able to belong to any neighborhood association they want, regardless of where they live? If I live in Jenks, I should have the right to belong to the Maple Ridge Neighborhood Association and vote on their actions?

That's probably not what you meant, but that's in effect what you're saying in your post above. COHN is a coalition made up of representatives from each of the neighborhoods listed on the National Register. That's espressly why COHN exists - to represent those National Register listed neighborhoods in a collective fashion. That probably does make them "exclusive" because there are only a handful of those neighborhoods in town.

It's not like there's any false advertising going on. Read the name again: Coalition of Historic Neighborhoods.

If you're interested in preservation in general, then Tulsa Foundation for Architecture is a wonderful non-profit preservation advocacy group who would love your participation and support.

[pmcalk]

My understanding of COHN is that it is not limited to those living in neighborhoods with historic designation (either HP or national register).  Those neighborhoods that have such a status are entitled to a board position, but membership is open to anyone.  The president & vice president must reside in a historic neighborhood, but the other officers do not.  The thought was to ensure that the coalition be represented by those who truly have historic preservation as their motivation, while still being inclusive.  Its not a perfect system, but nothing is.

[Rico]

^ p.m. I am very pleased to see that membership in COHN is not limited to Historic Neighborhoods...

By the way I have never seen this link on Tulsa Now... At least not in a post.

http://www.historicneighborhoods.net/

I meant no harm nor disrespect by the above post...

Sometimes things are hard to express .. semantics and all......

All I am trying to say is this.. Their is power in numbers..

There are many in Tulsa that think they can have no effect on something like the "Preservation of Historic Neighborhoods and Buildings"...

Again "No Disrespect" ^ A.J. ... but I would feel rather silly sending someone to the Tulsa Foundation for Architecture if I had a need for them as a comrade in a cause..

One thing that needs to be at the forefront, of this sort of project, would be the education of the potential allies...

The more that are involved in this the better the outcome will be..
IMHO...

[]

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Ed Sharrer is a smart guy...way smarter than average.

Let us know what he says.

We had our neighborhood (Lortondale) meeting last night with Ed Sharrer concerning Lortondale and the National Register application process.  Turnout was about 30 people, which was great for our 3-yr old group.

Towards the end of the presentation, I raised the issue of the BOA/Preservation Commission controversy.  It wasn't directly pertinent to Lortondale at the present time, but I felt it was not too off-topic and wanted to hear his opinions.  I feel I may have put Mr. Sharrer on-the-spot so to speak, as he was there as an official representative of the Preservation Commission, not a private citizen, and he probably felt he was limited in what he could comment.  Anyway, he confirmed the basic facts of the case and that the BOA did in fact, have the legal authority to overturn the TPC decision.  I said I thought that appalling, and that I think the BOA should defer to the judgement of the TPC in matters of historic zoning enforcement, because the historic expertise lies with the TPC, not the BOA.  I asked Mr. Sharrer why the TPC did not pursue the matter through the courts, and he said that they considered it, but it would amount to the "city suing itself" and they decided the potential problems were not worth the effort in this case.  I then remarked that the violating homeowner may have "inside connections" with the BOA or friends in high places, to which we both shared a nervous laugh and then moved on.

Mr. Sharrer said that the TPC and BOA are scheduled for one of their ongoing joint meetings next week.  Apparently they are aware of each others duties and goals, and do not work in total independent isolation from each other.

In addition, Mr. Sharrer remarked that Tulsa currently has 9 residential districts on the National Historic Register, and the TPC is working on adding 3 more: Ranch Acres, Lortondale, and Riverview.  He said that the goal of the TPC is to have approximately 15 Tulsa districts placed on the Register, and then that would be all for many, many years to come.