Neighbor(s) fight Swan Lake development

[tim huntzinger]

From KRMG:

'It's now a vacant lot with four concrete slabs that used to be garages. A developer wants to build a three story duplex on the property in the Swan Lake Historic Neighborhood. One protester says the lot is not wide enough and the plans are incomplete. A review committee under the Tulsa Preservation Commission couldn't agree on a recommendation for their full board. The builder has agreed to change the style of brick and made other concessions. The multi-family residential zoning is appropriate but opponents argue the building proposed for 1401 E. 17th Place does not meet setback and other guidelines.'

Is this another case like Eastbrooke, where the developer is pushing the envelope and the neighbor is just wasting his breath?

[TheArtist]

Setback "guidelines" sounds like your problem right there.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Setback "guidelines" sounds like your problem right there.

They're not guidlines, they are law.

[TheArtist]

Well, not to worry then. The guidelines will be met.

[tim huntzinger]

Well, having been victimized by McInfill, I hope that neighbor wins.  I know that all McInfill developers are not lying, cheating, scumbags who deserve jello shots where their kneecaps used to be, but . . .

[cannon_fodder]

My neighborhood has several houses that are McCrap and I would be happy to see them replaced by infill.  I would bet these same neighbors sit around complaining about the McAbandoned lots in their neighborhood but will complain about anything that someone wants to build.  Perhaps they would be better served by a lack of infill and the city can McRot from the inside out and we can just build new structures to the south or up in Owasso.

Funny how so many people on this forum want an urban lifestyle, but complain about everything that brings it to fruition.

[swake]

Very good point.

It's like all the people that complain about the condition of the streets in town. But the people who complain loudest are the same people who complained that Susan Savage had orange barrels all over town. So Lafortune got rid of the barrels and now there are streets in bad shape because so little maintenance was done. This is not rocket science people, really, no orange barrels=bad streets.

[mlofts]

Yes we had the same reaction this weekend when we saw a channel 2 post that our lofts were driving "homeowners" from our neighborhood.  We live in this neighborhood and have about 4 people who actually own the homes here (of the homes that were existing).  There are a lot of poeple that were too scared to walk around this side of 15th before we started development and no one complained at all about the houses that were used to cook drugs, house prostitutes, etc.  There were more than a few homes that were not maintained to the point of grafitti on the exterior walls, roofs that were caving in, lawns ignored for months and no one complained.  We came in and tore down those homes and built something new...it makes the news that we have ruined the character of the neighborhood and everyone is moving away.  I found it comical.  
On the other hand I purchased a home for remodel that ended up being financial disaster to attempt.  We thought we would tear down this home and build something as close to identical and it was in a historic neighborhood so we had to go for approval.  This house was in the Yorktown area and they had a lot to say about the teardown of homes in their area.  I personally believed one way and their argument was that the only thing keeping us from saving the house was money, possibly much more money than the house would be worth.  We agreed that if someone was willing to take on the project, we would sell the home to them in order to save the home.  One neighbor immediately scheduled an appointment to see and brought a buyer in 2 days.  
My point is...if the neighborhood has worked hard over the years to create an image based on character, there comes a point that they will also step up financially to back up their point.  There are some areas that deserve merit for their efforts, like Swan and Yorktown. There are also some that just want to complain because they think the developers asking to buy their house should pay 300k for their 1000 sq ft bungalow that has not been cared for in 10 years, has trash in the front and back yards and 16 cats under the front porch.  I think the original question is about a different area than what the responses describe.  The neighborhood has fairly lenient guidelines and so to follow them for this type of structure would not be to ask a lot.  The setbacks are 10' all the way around - this is the zoning code so this should be easy to follow.  I admit that I dont know a lot about this particular project but in general its a subject that I find interesting.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by mlofts

Yes we had the same reaction this weekend when we saw a channel 2 post that our lofts were driving "homeowners" from our neighborhood.  We live in this neighborhood and have about 4 people who actually own the homes here (of the homes that were existing).  There are a lot of poeple that were too scared to walk around this side of 15th before we started development and no one complained at all about the houses that were used to cook drugs, house prostitutes, etc.  There were more than a few homes that were not maintained to the point of grafitti on the exterior walls, roofs that were caving in, lawns ignored for months and no one complained.  We came in and tore down those homes and built something new...it makes the news that we have ruined the character of the neighborhood and everyone is moving away.  I found it comical.  
On the other hand I purchased a home for remodel that ended up being financial disaster to attempt.  We thought we would tear down this home and build something as close to identical and it was in a historic neighborhood so we had to go for approval.  This house was in the Yorktown area and they had a lot to say about the teardown of homes in their area.  I personally believed one way and their argument was that the only thing keeping us from saving the house was money, possibly much more money than the house would be worth.  We agreed that if someone was willing to take on the project, we would sell the home to them in order to save the home.  One neighbor immediately scheduled an appointment to see and brought a buyer in 2 days.  
My point is...if the neighborhood has worked hard over the years to create an image based on character, there comes a point that they will also step up financially to back up their point.  There are some areas that deserve merit for their efforts, like Swan and Yorktown. There are also some that just want to complain because they think the developers asking to buy their house should pay 300k for their 1000 sq ft bungalow that has not been cared for in 10 years, has trash in the front and back yards and 16 cats under the front porch.  I think the original question is about a different area than what the responses describe.  The neighborhood has fairly lenient guidelines and so to follow them for this type of structure would not be to ask a lot.  The setbacks are 10' all the way around - this is the zoning code so this should be easy to follow.  I admit that I dont know a lot about this particular project but in general its a subject that I find interesting.

Well at least with people leaving you can now more easily and cheaply buy property to build more lofts.

[OurTulsa]

Mlofts, the lady Ch. 2 interviewed owned the blue house on Rockford sandwiched in between two townhome projects getting ready to start.  This lady is pure and simple: a crab.  Had the two bungalows on either side been rehabbed she would have found something to botch about.  Not that you are, but I wouldn't worry about her.  
That side of Cherry St. is a mixture of character, while there were a lot of bungalows there was not a prevailing identity.  
People in this city have to come to grips with the idea that Cherry St. is inner-city Tulsa and Tulsa has got to urbanize.  While there are some neighborhoods worthy of preserving I don't think that we can afford to preserve every home built before 1940 in an area so close to downtown.

I like the concept of the townhomes going up in the Cherry St. district.  I love the density.  My one gripe is the orientation.  I wish that the new townhomes would at least provide some sort of connection with the neighborhood at least give some sort of perception of presence and participation in the neighborhood.  The townhomes on Troost might as well have a big FU on the walls facing the street.  The ones on Quincy are better as there are more than token windows facing the street.  The duplex on Troost has a nice presence but what's up with the fence in the front yard?  What do they need privacy from?  
The townhomes planned on the north side of the blue house on Rockford provide a real nice orientation to the street, no garage face, prominent front door and windows facing the street.  The townhomes on Rockford and the BA do a fairly good job as well orienting to the street.  Let's hope that the next projects going in have good orientation.

[mlofts]

the guy on troost needed the fence for his dogs, its only 4' high and this is his only yard space.  He also has kids and that street is known as a cut through from the BA Expressway so I agree that the fence is appropriate.  Agreed on Troost 7 plex, we now address the streets on our projects.
As far as the craftsman style neighborhood - there are a few on the streets we are building but on Troost there are several apartment buildings as well..not craftsman, but square brick buildings.  On Quincy there are more buildings than bungalows and the bungalows were crack homes, roach infested, wood rotted, termite infested, etc.  I wont go into their condition but I agree that maybe someday someone would have been able to repair. We initailly went to Incog about where we should build these particular townhomes and all came to agree that this was the spot...it was scary, and ignored, yet walkable and had potential.  We do remodel several bungalows per year, it is about 50% of our portfolio but not everyone can live in a 2/1 1000 sq ft bungalow.  On the street that has majority single family bungalows our design is a 3 plex that is a craftsman style with shake and lap board, complimentary to the other homes on the street.  This area is zoned for high density housing, we follow the zoning code and never request a variance for setbacks etc.  As a matter of fact we could fit several more homes into the development but choose not to.  If you think the city should change the zoning then let them know.  Otherwise there are only a handful of areas in the city that allow and prefer this type of housing.
Teddy Jack - fast buck is hardly my situation.  I have put all of my savings into this project, I am a 32 year old born and raised Tulsan and I live in the neighborhood.  I, like a lot of young Tulsans, ran off to bigger cities for the last 8 years and waited for some BIG DEVELOPER to give me the options of housing in Tulsa that every other city offered.  One day on a visit here I thought that if they would not do it, I would.  I started with 13 houses last year and am building more than 24 this year.  I have yet to make a profit but hopefully that will come with experience.  I dont expect everyone to like our style but the effort I assure you is whole hearted.  I am proud of my accomplishments and would do it again.

[tim huntzinger]

Mlofts, I certainly do not mean to cast dispersions on someone like yourself who is decreasing the density of flop-house rentals in an area badly in need of regentrification.

In my estimation, the absentee slumlords are doing far more damage tp the 'hood than your avante garde lofts.  Besides, at least you are not building more 'Tuscans'!

[si_uk_lon_ok]

M lofts,
I was walking around your new developments and saw that there was a lot being cleared, but the bungalow was for sale and on the back of a trailer. I was wondering if that was you as I thought it was good to recycle the unit or if it wasn't you if moving the property was something that you did do.
Thanks

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

...cast dispersions...

Alex, I'll take "Malapropisms" for a $1000.

[mlofts]

yes we move houses if its possible.  R & H was moving that for another builder and he moves for us the ones that are salvagable.  
No worries Tim, I just have to get on my soap box periodically.