"Urban" WalMart Supercenter.. In East Village....

[ZachDaniels]

[navy]

So there is a "STRONG" rumor that walmart is looking to put in a new multi-story urban designed supercenter in the east end of our downtown area and are now competing with the developers out of Washington D.C. that are looking to bring a true urban environment that we as Tulsans are lacking completely with a development such as a baseball stadium, *similar to bricktown*, Mixed use retail, loft apartments above the retail, urban style offices, restaurants and bars, a great urban lifestyle that would change Downtown Tulsa from being a lights go off district at 5pm.

DO YOU REALLY THINK A WALMART WOULD HELP? or would it be the same old small business/retailer killing facility that is everywhere else in Tulsa...

Tax dollars are not the only thing that matters.. We as people matter.. and I think it is ridiculous to block something that can change Tulsa for the greater and allow Tulsa to thrive on a true urban scale...  

All in favor of helping the Washington D.C. group change downtown Tulsa for the better say "I"


---Zach---

and for those of you that have to see it to visualize.... Click the link below

http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/EastEnd.html

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by ZachDaniels

[navy]

So there is a "STRONG" rumor that walmart is looking to put in a new multi-story urban designed supercenter in the east end of our downtown area and are now competing with the developers out of Washington D.C. that are looking to bring a true urban environment that we as Tulsans are lacking completely with a development such as a baseball stadium, *similar to bricktown*, Mixed use retail, loft apartments above the retail, urban style offices, restaurants and bars, a great urban lifestyle that would change Downtown Tulsa from being a lights go off district at 5pm.

DO YOU REALLY THINK A WALMART WOULD HELP? or would it be the same old small business/retailer killing facility that is everywhere else in Tulsa...

Tax dollars are not the only thing that matters.. We as people matter.. and I think it is ridiculous to block something that can change Tulsa for the greater and allow Tulsa to thrive on a true urban scale...  

All in favor of helping the Washington D.C. group change downtown Tulsa for the better say "I"


---Zach---

and for those of you that have to see it to visualize.... Click the link below

http://www.globaldevelopmentpartners.com/EastEnd.html

I'm going to get a lot of heat for this I bet, but that Wal Mart will be the death of downtown.  It will be the closest Wal-Mart to a crime ridden part of town.  We can argue whether or not North Tulsa has more crime or not, but the general public perception is there.  Yes, it's a positive development in terms of bringing groceries and shopping downtown, however, the kind of people (young people with $) that downtown needs don't want a Wal-Mart.  Especially one that will develop a reputation for being "ghetto" or dangerous.

[ZachDaniels]

I completely understand where you are coming from and its heart hardening to see that Tulsa's downtown planners and city planners would even allow or even consider this kind of economic suicide for that area, not to mention what do you do when the WalMart goes black  and puts in a different location and closes that one down? We will be in the same circumstances and our children will be fighting this battle and/or moving away to a place thats more accommodating for the young professional.

I am here to entice people to stand up and say something and have some pride in where you live and want a change that will impact not just ourselves but our children, our businesses, and Tulsa's future, this impact isnt a small scale % of downtown, it affects tulsa as a whole.

Just for me, close your eyes, picture a vibrant downtown hustle with a baseball stadium right in the mix, the sound of the fans, the bars with cold beer on tap, hot dog vendors on the corner and you walk down from your loft apartment to visit your local pub below and meet a few friends, step outside grab a hot dog and look at the retail stores as you walk over to catch the baseball game, and then after... head back to your pub for a nightcap and conversation before walking back upstairs to your residence.. Sounds like fun doesn't it?  

It does to me, as well as many millions of young Americans across the country.


"Vision without action is just a dream, and action without vision is a nightmare. Lets put this vision into action!"

---Zach---

[cannon_fodder]

1) Deja Vu
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5967&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=walmart%2C

It's been nearly a full two weeks since someone has pointed out that Walmart is the root of all evil on these forums.  But this particular development as been discussed Ad Nauseum in the above post.

2) "The kind of people downtown needs..."
I'm a young person with money and shop at Walmart.  Furthermore, downtown just needs PEOPLE.  Lets not get pretentious about who they are until there is some people there to start with.

3)  "Will be the death of downtown."  
No shopping malls and the sprawl south were the death of downtown about 30 years ago.  Most of Tulsa is South of I-44 and would have to pass at least one shopping centers to get downtown (probably more - Woodlands Hills, Promenade,  Utica Square, the Farm, Cherry Street and other shopping areas).  If you dont work downtown or you arent on your way to the PAC/Bluedome, there is no reason to be there.  

People keep areas alive.  Currently, after 5pm there are NO people downtown.  There might be a pocket near the blue dome on the weekends, or the PAC, or even the convention center from time to time.  But on any given night a drive down Boston or most other streets is an adventure in a ghost town.  By extension - its already dead.

People are needed to keep it alive.  Certainly Walmart will bring people downtown.   I wouldn't want to live next to Walmart, but if I no where else within walking distance to get groceries, beer, pharmaceuticals, toiletries, and other misc. items - I'd love to have one a few blocks away.

At the moment we have abandoned buildings and empty lots - I would prefer a Walmart with people to that.  Though, I greatly hope they dont put the standard box store with sprawling parking lot - that would be too bad.

[ZachDaniels]

As i stated above:

  The WalMart idea is a "direct conflict" with the other development, they are trying to buy the same ground that the DC people are trying to acquire.

  We need more people downtown, yes. But does it attract the right type of people, "ON A GENERAL BASIS" to the area? I can't say I am a WalMart hater because I do shop there occasionally but it is not going to add any vibrancy or get people to move into the area to create the needed "Urban Lifestyle" that every thriving city has. A WalMart will diminish the chances for a local pharmacist, a local beauty supply store, a local grocery store, electronics, etc.. to open, based on risk factors alone. Wouldn't we rather try something different and put our eggs in many different baskets? I can understand if you have only lived the suburban Tulsa way that you would be comfortable with that. I work downtown, and want to see it thrive. Tulsa needs character downtown, and a big box user isn't going to fill the need. Even if it is multi story with a different facade it is still... "WalMart" and it hinders the development and success of a preponderance of small businesses.


---Zach---

[Renaissance]

RIGHT NOW is the time that city leadership needs to step in and help settle this situation into some sort of mutually beneficial compromise.  With so much fallow land in downtown, SURELY there is enough for both developments.  SURELY the two devleopment companies could find a way to coexist.

Paging Mayor Taylor . . . Mayor Taylor, please pick up the phone.

[YoungTulsan]

Actually, I bet both Walmart and GDP base the viability of their developments by the state of the market right now being underserved.  If a walmart is downtown sucking up all this business and money, it may not leave enough "potential market" for GDP's east end to also be viable.   At least to the developer I imagine.   Just like the Channels would have sucked a lot of potential out of downtown development, a walmart might do that to people planning to take on the market downtown.

[cannon_fodder]

That's a good point YT.  

But I wouldnt ban Walmart for several reasons:

1) Its vain to try and tell the market what they want.  You are essentially punishing the nearby residents of the north side because you dont like Walmart and want to attract rich white young people.

2) Something is better than nothing.  I dont care if the King Abdullah was talking about building his winter palace in Tulsa.  Until they own the land and break ground, I dont believe a damn thing I hear aobut development in Tulsa.  So why ship the smaller ship when the larger one might not ever come to port?

Something else > Walmart > nothing.

[ZachDaniels]

Its not "Punishing" the nearby residents. But you are right that a WalMart doesn't attract the rich persona.

But look at how you put it..and remember.. "PERCEPTION IS REALITY"

"Its vain to try and tell the market what they want. You are essentially punishing the nearby residents of the north side because you dont like Walmart and want to attract rich white young people."

So are you saying that the north Tulsa people are of a lower incomes and other races? because that is what you implied.

Your statement and implication on income is a main reason why we don't have an urban lifestyle:

Lower income(doesn't support the retail demands for boutique style retail and independent small businesses.) Lower income also carries the persona of being unsafe, or "Ghetto" as tulsa1603 stated as a common persona for the east end.

Which in turn keeps the middle/upper-middle and upper class residents of Tulsa from living in the downtown district and keeping developments from happening. Unless! We have a development that is on a large enough scale to have an effect on the east end as a whole which will change the economics because people will want to be there.. Ballpark, retail, restaurants, bars, pharmacy's, grocery stores, offices, hotel(s), enough that it is a win win situation.

And to state a note of fact. GDP owns 1 city block in the east end.

[cannon_fodder]

I in no way meant to imply that most residents of North Tulsa are of a different income class.  I meant to actually SAY that residents of North Tulsa are generally of a different income class - namely poor.  And while I do not think race SHOULD have a significant roll to play in the decision, it is realistically going to be brought up in any decision as those poor North Tulsa residents have a much better chance of being black than wealthier mid-town residents.

I'm not sure how MY STATEMENT has any effect on development.  The reality probably has a lot more to do with it than my statement.  Who the hell listens to me anyway?

And while I am at it.  I'm voting against anything that gives public money to build a new ballpark.  As I sat with the other 1,000 people at the Driller's game the other day I came to the conclusion that a stadium further away from the population center probably wouldn't draw any more fans.  There is nothing WRONG with the stadium they play in now and other $1 beer nights no one goes.  Heck, for that matter, how many Driller games have you been to lately?  If it was going to be so wildly successful with the new stadium then they can built it themselves.

[ZachDaniels]

Here's why i think it would be more successful. Let's debate and not argue! :-D

A new ballpark placed in the middle of an urban development as i had mentioned before, living spaces, restaurants, offices, bars, hotels, retail, etc. is going to be more successful than a ballpark next to lowes and a super target that has no "attraction" persay to visit before or after, there's no (hey after dinner lets catch the game "or" lets walk over and see who's playing and then after that meet up with some friends at a pub or go shoppping), the new ballpark would be in the middle of where everyone wants to be, to wine and dine, to go on dates, to party to play, to be entertained, relax and live. its not just the ballpark, its not just the restaurants or the loft apartments, its the development as a whole that makes it work. The ballfield alone would be unsuccessful even if moved to a nicer facility its everything around it that helps feed. :-)

Plus the current location of the drillers would be a heck of a spot for a super walmart! HaHaHa!

"in my opinion"

[TheArtist]

An urban Wal-Mart could go in the East End no matter which major developer gets their way.  In other words there is room for both a stadium and an urban Wal-Mart in the East End.  Not to mention much more.

A neighborhood market with parking behind and or underneath, (the 2 story version) having an appropriate facade would not kill downtown. A regular Wal-Mart with parking underneath would not kill downtown.

If they or anyone else wants to put in a grocery store I dont see why it should be that horrible if it were urban in style.


Here are some excerpts from a news story I found interesting.


(((Wal-Mart is limited to land availability and zoning codes nationwide just like everybody else, he said. Many cities do not have zoning laws that would allow a mixed-use development like the Wal-Mart Village. Over the last few years, Wal-Mart has designed its buildings to represent individual communities, Zorn said. City officials are requesting noise control, parking, signage and landscaping concessions, he said. With that, communities "feel like they've built their Wal-Mart for their community. The process is becoming much more open." "We're looking for local architects, contractors and civil engineers. We're working harder than ever with business leaders, elected officials, and city and county planners. We're quite regularly attending open forums and bringing renderings." Wal-Mart now has a veritable "menu" of elevations to offer, Zorn said. Wal-Mart is partnering with local colleges so students can engage in hands-on training while receiving an education. Those neighborhood residents are helping build their own Wal-Mart store, Garner said. "That's phenomenal and powerful — it gives a sense of ownership," "We are looking at 50 to 70 'special projects' that are not traditional," he said. The company is sharing tips and best practices with its international division, which has built multilevel stores in urban markets worldwide.

...But in urban areas, the building's footprint must be more compact and relate to the street and sidewalks, allowing access for pedestrians as well as vehicles. The experimental stores in McKinney, Texas, Aurora, Colo., are environmentally friendly and sustainable in many aspects with the use of wind power or permeable parking surfaces.  In Chicago, Wal-Mart is experimenting with grass on 50 percent of the store's roof, joining many other companies in the city. " They showed us images of their latest 'green' store models with windmills, solar heating and recycled building materials.

....If they could just design some walkability and mixed-use into their design, up to 40 percent of the car trips to their stores could be eliminated, "she wrote.

The Wal-Mart officials were enthusiastic about these pedestrian-friendly ideas and even attended the public input charrette in Pass Christian in February, Hall said.

Roseland, Calif." To my knowledge, this has never happened before, "she wrote in the op-ed piece." Here was Wal-Mart's director of architecture with the New Urbanists, working night and day on a design that would meet their interests of not only the size of the store and the number of parking spaces, but also of providing nearby housing for their workers and plenty of nearby customers within walking distance. "And it was beautiful and walkable at the same time." )))


Global Developments plans were for a 1.9 million square foot development, including 450,000 sq ft of retail. Some new Urban Wal-Mart prototypes are 99,000 sq ft split between 2 floors. Plus remember there are more places for stores and such to go in downtown.

"Urban dwellers dont want to shop at Wal-Mart"  "Wal-Mart is the wrong demographic"

If thats true and nobody shops at the Wal-Mart then you won't have to worry about it being there for long.  After a month of so of no hip urban shoppers supporting it, it will go under, right?  You will have a new, decent looking brick structure with underground parking that can be used for other purposes instead of say a surface parking lot which may be there now. Plus a Wal-Mart won't be competing with any "trendy" urban type businesses so those types of businesses will have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Not the most urban, but another interesting variation of what Wal-Mart is doing in other places.  Has 2 levels of parking and shopping, with "street level" shopping and parking on top of the lower level Wal-Mart.

http://www.seligenterprises.com/dbimages/district1.swf

[Rico]

You are taking a lot on faith from a company that has not demonstrated it can be believed in to live up to anything other than the local zoning and building code.



At virtually every "Board of Adjustments" hearing held, in Tulsa, you will find "Wally" and friends asking for a rule change.

If you think Wal Mart will build or spend any more than what they feel is absolutely necessary.....

Good Luck.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist


http://www.seligenterprises.com/dbimages/district1.swf

Bury walmart, I like it. Is phase two filling the lower level with water?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

You are taking a lot on faith from a company that has not demonstrated it can be believed in to live up to anything other than the local zoning and building code.



At virtually every "Board of Adjustments" hearing held, in Tulsa, you will find "Wally" and friends asking for a rule change.

If you think Wal Mart will build or spend any more than what they feel is absolutely necessary.....

Good Luck.

That is true for most other retail stores as well.  That should be enough for Tulsa to make sure there is proper zoning or form based codes in an important area. The city of Tulsa can choose not to grant rule changes and on top of that the city does have some cards it can play in order to push any development to be more like what it wants. We aren't completely helpless.  If we can stop them from coming, which seems to be what many on here are arguing, then we should be able to also say, "But if you want to be here you or any other large retail store have to be like this..."