The surge is working!

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Yes, I understand that. I did not argue that the current situation is a peach in Iraq.  I simply said that anecdotal posting of random events do not clarify the situation.  Are these events worse and more frequent than before?  Is life worse for the average Iraqi?  Have the asshats had to chose softer targets?  Is the violence moving to areas not covered by the plan?  Is there a plan anticipating whatever is happening and a way to solve it?

No important question is answered by such stories.  Think of the headline on any given day in WWII:  American Soldiers Die Again Today.  It could have been the day we crossed the Rhine or won Iwo.  Who knows.  The story by itself, while true, does not necessarily give the big picture.  And the big picture is usually more important than a single event.

Well stated, questioning the war, the motives of W, it's connection to the WOT, none of these are germaine to the discussion of where to go from here.  I have a couple of things to add.

The only pertinant question that remains, seeing as how we are already involved, is:  Are we prepared to live with the aftermath once we abandon Iraq?

I say that if you give a damn about the Iraqi people you can't abandon them to the bloodbath awaiting our departure.  Simply pretending that we can discard Iraq and abandon them as we did in GWI is foolish.  If there is one ABSOLUTE way to guarantee that Iraqis NEVER trust the Americans again it's to abondon them again, and the only way to guarantee that a secular democracy NEVER takes root is to walk away right now.

Can anyone explain to me how walking away DOESN'T guarantee totalitarian/sectarian leadership, and how can walking away possibly keep oil out of the hands of our enemies?

These two questions MUST be addressed, and not flippantly, before we talk about leaving.

[Breadburner]

Thats the only way they win...If we walk away.....The only thing that will work is a long term occupation....Coupled with training and turning over security to local government entities...With the US there to help when problems arise....It all starts with educating the children.....

[cannon_fodder]

quote:They are intelligent people who have only one thing in mind. "Kill the infidels"

That is a minority and extremist view throughout the Middle East.  Most people want to wake up, grab some coffee, go to work, come home and see their wife and kids.  They want their children to live a better life than they did.  They want to go on vacation from time to time.  They want to worship as they see fit.  In short, they want to be happy.

Most people arent all that different.  Iraqi's (and Iranians for that matter) are no different.  Extremists amongst them are winning the day and the situation is breeding more extremists.  The best chance to break this spiral was to stop it before it started immediately after that war.  We didnt.  Where do we go now?  

Immediately withdrawal will placate our masses by leave the people that just want to be happy to suffer for it.

[iplaw]

quote:Immediately withdrawal will placate our masses by leave the people that just want to be happy to suffer for it.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Yes, I understand that. I did not argue that the current situation is a peach in Iraq.  I simply said that anecdotal posting of random events do not clarify the situation.  Are these events worse and more frequent than before?  Is life worse for the average Iraqi?  Have the asshats had to chose softer targets?  Is the violence moving to areas not covered by the plan?  Is there a plan anticipating whatever is happening and a way to solve it?

No important question is answered by such stories.  Think of the headline on any given day in WWII:  American Soldiers Die Again Today.  It could have been the day we crossed the Rhine or won Iwo.  Who knows.  The story by itself, while true, does not necessarily give the big picture.  And the big picture is usually more important than a single event.

Well stated, questioning the war, the motives of W, it's connection to the WOT, none of these are germaine to the discussion of where to go from here.  I have a couple of things to add.

The only pertinant question that remains, seeing as how we are already involved, is:  Are we prepared to live with the aftermath once we abandon Iraq?

I say that if you give a damn about the Iraqi people you can't abandon them to the bloodbath awaiting our departure.  Simply pretending that we can discard Iraq and abandon them as we did in GWI is foolish.  If there is one ABSOLUTE way to guarantee that Iraqis NEVER trust the Americans again it's to abondon them again, and the only way to guarantee that a secular democracy NEVER takes root is to walk away right now.

Can anyone explain to me how walking away DOESN'T guarantee totalitarian/sectarian leadership, and how can walking away possibly keep oil out of the hands of our enemies?

These two questions MUST be addressed, and not flippantly, before we talk about leaving.

Senator Law... Maybe a little off the beaten path of this wonderful Q and A...

Are you of an age to have been around say in 1969? To have heard the arguments and so forth for not leaving Viet Nam.?

Have you ever been in a Guerilla warfars situation?

[okiebybirth]

We are in denial if we don't think there is a civil war occurring.  I supported the war initially, but I had no idea the incompetence and stubborness of Rumsfield.  His Shock and Awe will go down as one of the biggest mistakes.  Enough troops to topple the regime, not enough troops to occupy a country.  I'd much rather have adhered to Powell's doctrine of overwhelming force.  Because of the incompetence exhibited by Rumsfield and the arrogance of this administration, we failed to protect the Iraqi people and now they don't trust us enough to side with us against the insurgents.  Enough troops and Sadr wouldn't have been able to go into the slums of Baghdad and create havoc and he wouldn't have the power he has today.

We can't stop a civil war.  And we certainly don't need to be in the middle of it.  One option may be to pull back to Kurdistan and let the civil war happen without us being a target.  We'll have to wait this civil war out until passion has died down and rational thoughts and steps can be taken. Establish bases outside of the cities so that we are close enough to strike when we see Al Qaeda but not insert ourselves in their civil war. Until then, all we can do it be close enough to fight if we see Al Qaeda come out of the shadows.  We can't leave the ME now, but we can't be in the middle of this civil war either.

[iplaw]

quote:Senator Law... Maybe a little off the beaten path of this wonderful Q and A...

Are you of an age to have been around say in 1969? To have heard the arguments and so forth for not leaving Viet Nam.?

Have you ever been in a Guerilla warfars situation?

[/size=2]

Neither of those questions are of any import to this discussion.  Now, if you want to start a thread which attempts to compare Iraq to Vietnam, feel free, and I will be more than happy to discuss it there.  If not, please stay on topic.

[swake]

Al-Qaida group claims killing of 9 GIs in Iraq
Worst attack on ground forces in Iraq in more than a year

Associated Press
Updated: 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
BAGHDAD - An al-Qaida-linked group posted a Web statement Tuesday claiming responsibility for a suicide car bombing that killed nine U.S. paratroopers and wounded 20 in the worst attack on American ground forces in Iraq in more than a year.
The Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group of Sunni militants that includes al-Qaida in Iraq, said it was behind Monday's attack on a U.S. patrol base in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad — an area that has seen a spike in violence since American troops surged into the capital to halt violence there.

[iplaw]

quote:
I supported the war initially, but I had no idea the incompetence and stubborness of Rumsfield.  His Shock and Awe will go down as one of the biggest mistakes.  Enough troops to topple the regime, not enough troops to occupy a country.  I'd much rather have adhered to Powell's doctrine of overwhelming force.  Because of the incompetence exhibited by Rumsfield and the arrogance of this administration...

Again, interesting take, but of no importance to the discussion.

quote:
we failed to protect the Iraqi people and now they don't trust us enough to side with us against the insurgents.  Enough troops and Sadr wouldn't have been able to go into the slums of Baghdad and create havoc and he wouldn't have the power he has today.

I partially agree with you here, though I don't agree that they are siding with the insurgents, especially not because we didn't drop a big enough hammer.

quote:
We can't stop a civil war.  And we certainly don't need to be in the middle of it.  

Depends on whether you think innocents in Iraq are worth protecting...

quote:One option may be to pull back to Kurdistan and let the civil war happen without us being a target.  We'll have to wait this civil war out until passion has died down and rational thoughts and steps can be taken.  Establish bases outside of the cities so that we are close enough to strike when we see Al Qaeda but not insert ourselves in their civil war. Until then, all we can do it be close enough to fight if we see Al Qaeda come out of the shadows.  We can't leave the ME now, but we can't be in the middle of this civil war either.

I hate to disagree, but this simply isn't a civil war.  Far too few are involved for it to be a civil war.  Outside forces are fighting for control of Iraq, for both its oil and its land.  The sectarian violence is being driven by Al Qaeda on one side, and Sadr and the Shia on the other.

Sectarian violence is being used as a ruse by Al Qaeda to get us out of the picture because they know it's the only way to get us out.

[swake]

Stabilizing Iraq would mean adding at least half a million US Troops, getting rid of the democratically elected government, sealing the borders and really occupying a hostile Iraqi populace and doing it for a decade or more until real social structures and institutions are built. In the process we will alienate the Iraqi people and the entire region if not world. It would cost tens of thousands of American lives and trillions of dollars.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Al-Qaida group claims killing of 9 GIs in Iraq
Worst attack on ground forces in Iraq in more than a year

Associated Press
Updated: 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
BAGHDAD - An al-Qaida-linked group posted a Web statement Tuesday claiming responsibility for a suicide car bombing that killed nine U.S. paratroopers and wounded 20 in the worst attack on American ground forces in Iraq in more than a year.
The Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group of Sunni militants that includes al-Qaida in Iraq, said it was behind Monday's attack on a U.S. patrol base in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad — an area that has seen a spike in violence since American troops surged into the capital to halt violence there.

Let me quote CF:

I simply said that anecdotal posting of random events do not clarify the situation.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by swake

Al-Qaida group claims killing of 9 GIs in Iraq
Worst attack on ground forces in Iraq in more than a year

Associated Press
Updated: 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
BAGHDAD - An al-Qaida-linked group posted a Web statement Tuesday claiming responsibility for a suicide car bombing that killed nine U.S. paratroopers and wounded 20 in the worst attack on American ground forces in Iraq in more than a year.
The Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group of Sunni militants that includes al-Qaida in Iraq, said it was behind Monday's attack on a U.S. patrol base in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad — an area that has seen a spike in violence since American troops surged into the capital to halt violence there.

Let me quote CF:

I simply said that anecdotal posting of random events do not clarify the situation.

And I think nine American dead soldiers in the worst attack in a year should not be ignored as "anecdotal". In fact, to say that is simply offensive.

[iplaw]

quote:Stabilizing Iraq would mean adding at least half a million US Troops

Says who?

quote:
getting rid of the democratically elected government

Why?

quote:
sealing the borders

Agreed.

quote:
and really occupying a hostile Iraqi populace and doing it for a decade or more until real social structures and institutions are built.

The Iraqi populace is NOT HOSTILE.  I don't know where you get your information from, but the Iraqi people aren't the ones who are blowing up civilans and the US/Iraqi military, it's the militant extremists that are infiltrating from other areas, and the remaining Baathist elements.

quote:
In the process we will alienate the Iraqi people and the entire region if not world.

And you think leaving them to be slaughtered via genocide and sectarian violence will endear them to us.  You must be joking...

quote:
It would cost tens of thousands of American lives and trillions of dollars.

So did WWII, and it was worth it was it not?

[iplaw]

quote:
And I think nine American dead soldiers in the worst attack in a year should not be ignored as "anecdotal". In fact, to say that is simply offensive.

No one is saying that it isn't a tragedy nor that it should be ignored.  Take your "outrage" somewhere else.

[cannon_fodder]

Anecdotal: refers to evidence based on reports of specific individual cases rather than a broader spectrum of research such as controlled, clinical studies or prolonged inquiry.

A single attack or a day of attacks that kills American soldiers (or anyone else) is, while tragic, the definition of anecdotal evidence to the current state of affairs in Iraq.  The English language is wide ranging and varied because it has evolved to allow an individual to speak with a great degree of specificity in meaning.  If you are part of the grumbling mass that chooses to ignore that fact and instead assign obscure meanings to all words; have at it. But please do not attempt to say I am somehow callus towards our troops because of your ignorance.

This would segway nicely into a discussion of how not everyone that dies is a 'hero,'  but I digress...