Chapman Stadium

[sportyart]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

OU was 1985 national champions and 87 may have been there first Tulsa game after that.

As mentioned, bowling it in is an option, I would imagine they could do some on the NE and NW corners as well. Supposedly they only lost 5,000 seats, and could recoup that in future expansions. In the mean time they added more seats that make money so they can pay to re-upsize.

I wasn't interested in "why" there were so many fans, that much was obvious.  I'm curious where they put all those people for OU/TU.

This is a well-circulated story. []

The athletic director at the time renumbered the stadium seats for that game and added one seat per row. That's how they got 47,000 people in a stadium that only seated 40,000.

People were crammed in there like sardines. Everyone had to stand the entire game -- facing SIDEWAYS. There literally wasn't enough room on each row to stand or sit shoulder to shoulder. Every time the field position would switch from one side to the other, the whole crowd had to turn around to face the other direction.

Apparently the university caught some major hell from the fire chief after the game, but they'd already pocketed the money.

So what do you think of this plan AJ?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by sportyart

This is something that I was questioning. When they removed the north end zone stands, it dropped from 40, 385 to 35,542. So now they are only expecting to lose 4,542 seats with the removal of the major "erector set" section of seats? I can't see that, it's a huge section of the stadium. I would guess that it would be more about 25,000 seats. A am also concerned that the reduction in seating that its going to be even harder for TU to be able to make contacts with larger universities (like OU and OSU) that base their contracts solely on the ability to make money off of ticket sales, and with TU having an even smaller seating capacity, they wont be able to live up to those needs.

Small private universities like TU typically negotiate home-away-home football contracts with larger state universities.  The smaller university sacrifices home field advantage for a payday, and the larger university only has to travel once in exchange for filling its larger stadium twice.

In other words, this shouldn't affect TU's ability to negotiate contracts with larger nonconference opponents.  Ironically, what will make it most difficult to negotiate is if TU actually becomes a threat to beat them regularly - see, e.g., TCU.  The big schools want a patsy, not a competitive game.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

You dont build a stadium to hold capacity crowds one time every other year.  Most of the time TU had 25K fans in their 45K seat stadium.  That is not a good atmosphere.

Eliminating the additional seats will save Tulsa $10,000,000.00 in the renovations and make Tulsa a better atmosphere for the fans.

If you [edit typo]were a[/edit] the game, then you remember that there were more OSU fans than Tulsa fans.  Screw that.

With an average attendance in the 20's, a stadium in the 30's will be just fine for now.

Maybe our city fathers and mothers could have considered that logic in building the over-sized BOK Center. [xx(]  I'm betting on a sell-out for the first event since people will want to see what they bought with their tax dollars.

After that, I think a sell-out will be a rarity.  Even though we will have the capacity to sell more tickets than we have before, our demographic and population base won't complete with OKC, Dallas, and KC for the bigger concerts and touring events.  Even with the arena, we would have never gotten the Hornets.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71
Maybe our city fathers and mothers could have considered that logic in building the over-sized BOK Center. [xx(]  I'm betting on a sell-out for the first event since people will want to see what they bought with their tax dollars.

After that, I think a sell-out will be a rarity.  Even though we will have the capacity to sell more tickets than we have before, our demographic and population base won't complete with OKC, Dallas, and KC for the bigger concerts and touring events.  Even with the arena, we would have never gotten the Hornets.

What makes you think that?  The BOk Center will be smaller than the Ford Center and Reunion Arena in Dallas.  Many cities that are slightly smaller than Tulsa have an arena of comparable size to the BOk Center, such as Omaha, Des Moines, and Little Rock.  We have to remember the marketplace for a large regional arena.  No, the BOk Center won't sell out for Oilers hockey games, but something like an Eric Clapton concert will draw audiences from not only Tulsa's soon-to-be 1 million pop. MSA, but NW Ark, SW Missouri, and SE Kansas.  Furthermore, many sports events, such as NCAA tournament games, require an arena the size of the BOk Center to host.  Little Rock will be hosting 1st and 2nd round NCAA tourney games in 2008, with their 18,000 seat arena.  There is absoulutely no reason to think Tulsa cannot do the same in the coming years with an architectual icon such as the BOk Center, as well as almost double the MSA population of Little Rock.

[USRufnex]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=070426_238_B1_spanc42637

Renaming Skelly: A new name for TU's stadium after 60 years: New name, new beginning
By ERIC BAILEY World Sports Writer
4/26/2007  1:15 PM

TU's stadium changes titles, but Skelly name not forgotten

Maurice Hail was still a young lad when his family used to take drives past the new Skelly Field in 1930.

"It was such a big deal, probably one of the biggest items being built in the state of Oklahoma," said Hail, 87 and a former University of Tulsa football player. "Everyone in the state knew Tulsa was going to get a big stadium."

Many different transformations, including the 1947 name change to Skelly Stadium, have occurred in the 76-year history of TU's football venue.

The latest came on Tuesday night when school president Steadman Upham announced the H.A. and Mary K. Chapman Trust will provide $9 million -- and half of the estimated cost -- of a major stadium renovation that will be completed by fall 2008.

With the hefty gift came naming rights. The venue will now be known as Skelly Field at H.A. Chapman Stadium.

"The Chapmans have been so generous to the university," TU athletic director Bubba Cunningham said Tuesday. "This is a great gift for the university and the athletic program."

The renovations include new seating throughout the stadium, restrooms, a new press box and new scoreboard. Luxury suites will also be added to the west side.

School officials announced Wednesday that there will be a news conference unveiling additional details and renderings of Chapman Stadium at a later date.

Donne Pitman and Jerry Dickman, trustees of the H.A. and Mary K. Chapman Trust, weren't available for comment.

Mike Case kickstarted the stadium renovation by providing a significant gift for the soon-to-be opened $10 million Case Athletic Complex.

He's excited about the Chapman Foundation's commitment.

"It's extremely exciting and I couldn't be happier that someone like the Chapman Trust were able to step up," Case said.

Capacity is expected to dip to around 31,000. It would be the smallest in Conference USA, but comparable to Southern Miss (33,000), SMU (32,000) and Houston (32,000).

Tulsa made sure it involved the heirs of William Skelly before shifting stadium naming rights.

Fulton Collins, chairman of TU's Board of Trustees, met with Skelly's grandson Jon Stuart and granddaughter Randi Wightman.

"They asked me what I thought about (renaming the stadium) and I agreed that it was a good plan of action," said Stuart, a member of the University of Oklahoma's Board of Regents.

Wightman appreciated TU's outreach to Skelly's family.

"The fact that they didn't jump in and change it without asking us (was respectful)," Wightman said. "We certainly weren't against the (name change).

"If the Chapman Foundation is putting up that much money, they deserve their name on the stadium."

With all the changes, one constant will stay.

The words "Skelly Field" will remain etched in the limestone at midfield on the stadium's east side.

Glenn Dobbs III spent much of his young years inside Skelly Stadium. Renaming it to Chapman Stadium brings bittersweet feelings.

"I have mixed emotions," said former letterman Dobbs, who is also the son of TU player and coach Glenn Dobbs. "I understand why they did that."

Tommy Hudspeth played at TU from 1949-52. He said keeping Skelly's name attached is beneficial.

"That still keeps the past in there and it brings forward the aggressiveness of the University of Tulsa and its followers," Hudspeth said.

QUICK FACTS

What happened:
The H.A. and Mary K. Chapman Trust has provided $9 million —half of the estimated cost —for the renovation of the University of Tulsa's football stadium.

What's next:
With the large gift comes naming rights. Skelly Stadium will become Skelly Field at H.A. Chapman Stadium in 2007.

The renovation project, which includes new seating, restrooms, a new press box and new scoreboard, is scheduled to be completed by the 2008 home opener.

----------------------------------------------

Boy, the statement "capacity is expected to dip to around 31,000" just doesn't add up.  Those upper level stands had to hold close to 10,000... and wasn't taking out a few of the front rows to give more room for TV media once part of the mix?  At least that had been the rumor for years... and when it comes to "new seating," does it mean there'll be some actual seats or will it just be the same bench seating?  

TU hasn't averaged very close to 25K per game in over a decade... and that includes years in which attendance stats would be skewered based on the occasional sellout home game against OU or OSU... in other words, your typical TU game crowd against Houston, UTEP or SMU, etc. would be closer to 15K in  attendance...

The attendance stats I used to be able to look up are being reorganized so I was only able to find TU's avg attendance the past couple of years...

TU's 2006 avg per game home attendance:  22,826
TU's 2005 avg per game home attendance:  21,364

[rwarn17588]

It's not that odd to reduce the size of a venue. The big key is, how many luxury suites are you adding? Those are the big moneymakers. And I see that TU has those prominently in the mix.

A lot of major-league baseball stadiums, starting in the 1990s, willingly scaled down to sub-50,000 stadiums because 1) of the aforementioned luxury boxes provided more revenue; 2) smaller stadiums provide a better viewing experience for spectators.

Example: The new Busch Stadium in St. Louis seats fewer than 50,000, which is more than 6,000 fewer than the old stadium.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

What makes you think that?  The BOk Center will be smaller than the Ford Center and Reunion Arena in Dallas.  Many cities that are slightly smaller than Tulsa have an arena of comparable size to the BOk Center, such as Omaha, Des Moines, and Little Rock.  We have to remember the marketplace for a large regional arena.  No, the BOk Center won't sell out for Oilers hockey games, but something like an Eric Clapton concert will draw audiences from not only Tulsa's soon-to-be 1 million pop. MSA, but NW Ark, SW Missouri, and SE Kansas.  Furthermore, many sports events, such as NCAA tournament games, require an arena the size of the BOk Center to host.  Little Rock will be hosting 1st and 2nd round NCAA tourney games in 2008, with their 18,000 seat arena.  There is absoulutely no reason to think Tulsa cannot do the same in the coming years with an architectual icon such as the BOk Center, as well as almost double the MSA population of Little Rock.

Good questions, I hope I'm dreadfully wrong.

Here's what concert promoters are going to look at:

OKC MSA is something like 1.3mm to 1.4mm.  Ford Center will have about 1300 more seats for concerts.  OKC is also in close proximity to Norman and close enough to Stillwater to attract college-age and young adults.  Promoters also count on Tulsans driving to OKC for concerts.

Tulsa and OKC are close enough together that "major" tours will pick OKC over Tulsa and won't usually book the cities back-to-back.  Due to the production costs of some tours like the Police, they aren't going to hit OKC, pretty much just the top 20 markets in North America.

Little Rock pretty much plays second fiddle to Memphis when it comes to bookings for the same reasons Tulsa does and will to OKC.

Garth Brooks could sell out the arena, but who knows about, say, Kenny Chesney.

We can probably get some first and second round NCAA action at some point, but those games aren't a guaranteed sell-out, unless one of the area schools is playing, even then 18,000 is a lofty goal.

Convention business?  What do we have to offer over other cities which attract the big conventions?

Our demographic and population is always going to relegate us to having second tier professional sports.

Hey, I understand if we don't cast a line in the water, we won't catch any fish.  I still think we could have built a 12,000 or 14,000 seat arena, saved money and still gotten about the kind of shows we will wind up with anyhow.

[TheArtist]

I dont know about you, but I am hoping that in 15 or 20 years. Which isnt really that far in the future.  Tulsa will have 20,000 OSU students, and more counting TCC downtown and by then a larger TU.  Plus a bustling downtown and population growth all around.  In other words, I think we will "grow into" the BOK arena in no time at all.

As for the TU stadium.  I suppose they are going for quality of venue versus quantity.  In time if its warranted they can upgrade and add more seating and that structure can be of a higher quality and appearance than the old one.  

Any word on the new TU PAC building?  Renderings? Where is it going to be?

[Conan71]

I hope so.  I also hope our city doesn't get as bored with BOK center as quickly as Memphis did with the Pyramid.  They opened the Fedex Forum only 13 years after commissioning the Pyramid.  Now that space is in limbo.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by sportyart

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

OU was 1985 national champions and 87 may have been there first Tulsa game after that.

As mentioned, bowling it in is an option, I would imagine they could do some on the NE and NW corners as well. Supposedly they only lost 5,000 seats, and could recoup that in future expansions. In the mean time they added more seats that make money so they can pay to re-upsize.

I wasn't interested in "why" there were so many fans, that much was obvious.  I'm curious where they put all those people for OU/TU.

This is a well-circulated story. []

The athletic director at the time renumbered the stadium seats for that game and added one seat per row. That's how they got 47,000 people in a stadium that only seated 40,000.

People were crammed in there like sardines. Everyone had to stand the entire game -- facing SIDEWAYS. There literally wasn't enough room on each row to stand or sit shoulder to shoulder. Every time the field position would switch from one side to the other, the whole crowd had to turn around to face the other direction.

Apparently the university caught some major hell from the fire chief after the game, but they'd already pocketed the money.

So what do you think of this plan AJ?

Cautiously optimistic. I'm going to wait until the full announcement when all the details will be made public. But I like what I see so far.

[tulsa1603]

This is great news!!  For years, I have been saying that they should just remove the additional metal stands above the limestone on the west side.  It would make for a much classier stadium and will give a much better feel to the neighborhood.  My brother is a TU alum, and I have been to many many games there, and the "echo" chamber effect is a real downer when the stands are empty.  

Quality over quantity.  I am ALL for it.

[cannon_fodder]

My sentiments exactly Tulsa1603.

Conan:

The BOk arena is not 18K seats because we think we can sell that many, but because it has to be that large.  Let me explain.

Most promoters and many events will not consider a venue any smaller than that.  The NCAA, pro sports or even pro exhibitions, national concert tours, and major conventions require at least 18,000 seats in a venue to BID FOR the product.  Tulsa would have probably been best served by a 10-14,000 seat arena but when you figure in all the lost possibilities (nearly anything notable and everything people want to see in Tulsa) the extra space is needed.

Its too bad, I agree.  I would have been happier with a less expensive, higher % utilized stadium, with that 'its not empty in here' feeling.  However, the loss of potential customers would have doomed the product.  The market demands 18K, and so it must be provided or dont bother building it (which was also an option).

[sgrizzle]

The arena was also built to cater to smaller events. Distinct upper and lower bowls, skyboxes are not very high up, seats are blue to "reduce the feeling of emptiness," etc.

[Conan71]

Well, hopefully as someone else pointed out that it might well be hitting capacity 15 to 20 years out.

As I've said all along I hope my predictions of doom are proven wrong. []

[Steve]

It is T.U.'s facility, and they can call it whatever they want to.  Money talks.

I recall recently there was some flak about renaming the convention center for a new corporate sponsor, and removing former Tulsa mayor Maxwell's name.

Personally, I will always call the T.U. stadium "Skelly Stadium."  I will always call I-244 through Tulsa the "Crosstown Expressway," not the M.L. King Memorial Expressway.  I will always call the convention center the "Maxwell Convention Center" or the Assembly Center.  Names will come and go, what is more important is that infrastructure and facilities are maintained, and if some private or corporate donor wants to feed their ego and have their name slapped on something, fine.  The "official" name is immaterial and will probably change with every few generations and the latest big-bucks donor anyway.