17 Y/O Stoned to Death in Iraq

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

Both broke rules: both paid with their lives. Is it just the barbarism that affronts our cultural sense of "Just Desserts" for some people?

It is.  It's our sub-surface racism that allows one to be wrong, and the other right.  It's the "barbarism" that makes it wrong even though she knew the consequences, on the other hand for the shoplifter, it's "come uppins" and right even though the outcome was far from predestined.

The only reason this thread was posted was to say "look at the barbarians".  Barbaric being a relative term.

[iplaw]

I can't believe that some people around here have to have the striking differences in the two fact patterns pointed out to them.  Just goes to prove that common sense aint so common anymore.

And these people serve on our juries...god help us all.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by mr.jaynes

quote:Originally posted by shadows

We are winning this policing action by replacing the exile government from England back in power, replacing the dictator that had the power of life and death over the citizens.

We haven't won a thing there. Quite honestly, I think we're there simply because the current "President" had his pride wounded in Afghanistan and so he apparently wants to save face. Only question is, how will we withdraw? Will we withdraw with some modicum of dignity, or will we withdraw with our collective tail between our legs?

I really fail to see how he had his pride wounded in Afghanistan.  The Taliban was dismembered in short order and terrorist training camps were taken out.  

Whoops, we didn't get OBL.  No one can even say for certain if he is still alive or not.  Whether you find one man in a vast wasteland of desert and mountains isn't the sole determining factor of success or failure.  Hunting terrorists is like hunting prairie dogs.

And here we are, almost 6 years later, bogged down in the Middle East with no apparent end in sight.

[jdb]

"Just goes to prove..." - ip

Myopia, poor reading comp., or lame attempt to follow a poster around to get under his skin?

You decide.
jdb

[iplaw]

quote:
And here we are, almost 6 years later, bogged down in the Middle East with no apparent end in sight.

I'm still trying to figure out how his pride was wounded in Afghanistan...

[cannon_fodder]

MichaelC:

So now I'm a racist because I see a difference between the unintentional death of a shoplifter and the intentional stoning to death of a teenage girl for loving the wrong person?  Wow.  That's a new stretch in logic.

I have NO IDEA what color the man was that died at Wal-Mart.  I dont know what language he spoke, if he was an immigrant, nor his age but for the fact he was over majority.    It might be in the article, I dont know.  Because it doesnt matter.  I dont know the race of the security guards that subdued him, nor their ethnic, religous, or linguistic backgrounds either.  I was not aware that this was some kind of racially motivated event.  

Likewise, I made no mention of the race of the girl nor her assailants.   You can watch the video and see that they are all middle eastern (Kurdish presumably, but they could be Persian, Turkish or Arab - I'm too ignorant to really tell), but again, it has no bearing.  

No one argues with the differences I posted, but you go on pretending like it is an analogous situation.  If Matthew Shepard would have been stoned to death (dragged to death) by masses of people all participating and video recording the event - then there would be an analogy.  Someone murdered by the mob for a personal choice that had no ill effects on other people (as opposed to someone accidentally killed while being subdued for their greed).

The purpose of posting this article was to simply bring it to light.  I was under the impression that Kurdistan was a fairly 'normal' place, but it appears to be far from my definition of normal.  To avoid your acusations of labeling other barbarians, perhaps I should stick my head in the sand and not pay attention to the goings on of the world (North Korea allows their people to starve, America holds captives without trials, the house of Saud has school girls beheaded for dress code violations - we better stop discussing these).

Honestly, if you cannot see the difference... just tell me.  It would be a waste of time trying to discuss anything further with you.  If you can see the difference and wish to point how why you think both are bad, let me know.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

MichaelC:

So now I'm a racist because I see a difference between the unintentional death of a shoplifter and the intentional stoning to death of a teenage girl for loving the wrong person?

No.  Applying your knowledge of justice to some other country, then saying they're wrong for not believing as you do, maybe.  Dragging up some article about something you don't like about another country or people, maybe.

And if you're one of those that applauded the death of the shoplifter, you certainly don't help your case.  

Like I said, there's no reason for this thread other that to say "look at the barbarians."  Is that racist?  Maybe.

[cannon_fodder]

Then there is no reason to discuss Israel, Darfor, North Korean atrocities, or any other horrible event in the world.  Clearly the only point is to call other people names.

This is one of the rare instances in which I will flat out say my belief system is better than someone else's.  I believe this is the first instance on this forum that I have ever made such a statement and is likely to be one of a handful of instances in which I can even foresee doing so.  Slowly beating a young girl to death in public because she loved the wrong person is beyond anything that I could ever begin to rationalize as an excusable activity. I sincerely hope you join me in this sentiment or your core values are very much at odds with my own.

I guess that make me racist against a belief - if you want to pretend a belief is a race.

My position on the shoplifting incident remains posted for all to see if you so desire.  I did not feel the need to draw similarities and therefor do not know why I feel the need to continue reconciling the two:

quote: I too find it hard to drum up sympathy for a criminal that dies as a consequence of the act.

If it is found that the Wal-Mart security guards set out to kill the poor bastard, then I will have issue. But if in the struggle he had a heart attack, or fell and hit his head, or in some other way was injured unintentionally by security the hell with him. Security guards get shot and killed trying to stop shoplifters, they are entitled to protect themselves if someone puts up a struggle and Wal-Mart is entitled to protect its property from theft.

It hits on all the key points I outlined above.
1) I didnt know nor relate to his nor the guards race.
2) I have little sympathy assuming it was UNINTENTIONAL.
3) He was infringing on other people rights (theft)

if you would like to reopen this discussion, please do so on the aforementioned thread.  If you would like to relate this to the current thread; please, as I suggested, comment on WHY you think they are similar and equally bad.

and finally - racism is prejudiced based on ones RACE.  Not their beliefs nor actions.  If I dislike a belief or an action it is inherently NOT racist for the dislike is not based on race.   (and, to be technical, Barbarian is linguistic prejudice [though I understand the common nomenclature and feel the need to point out that I say this in jest]).

I am happy to discuss this with you, but you are stating conclusions with engaging the issues.  It makes it hard to have a meaningful dialogs.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Then there is no reason to discuss Israel, Darfor, North Korean atrocities, or any other horrible event in the world.  Clearly the only point is to call other people names.

So, now all of the sudden, those rednecks down in Houston that dragged that black man around by their pickup truck, says something clear about the US.  The United States, full of people that nail gays to fences and bomb abortion clinics.

There is nothing broader here than to condemn Islam, Iraq, Kurds, or someone.  That's it.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Then there is no reason to discuss Israel, Darfor, North Korean atrocities, or any other horrible event in the world.  Clearly the only point is to call other people names.

So, now all of the sudden, those rednecks down in Houston that dragged that black man around by their pickup truck, says something clear about the US.  The United States, full of people that nail gays to fences and bomb abortion clinics.

There is nothing broader here than to condemn Islam, Iraq, Kurds, or someone.  That's it.

[Roll Eyes] Heaven forbid we ever condemn someone. [/Roll Eyes]

If the practice was common place and was condoned by the community as it was in this case, then yes, I would make the same statement about the USA, but that's not the case.  Honor killings are part of the fabric of the culture in the ME and are considered justified.  

The people who perpetrated this atrocity in Texas were osctricized and punished.  The people who did this in Kurdistan not only weren't ostricized, but were encouraged by the community.

[Breadburner]

The shoplifter that died was a career criminal with a very un-healthy lifestyle that contributed to his death.....He alone was responsible for his actions and his own death.....

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

The shoplifter that died was a career criminal with a very un-healthy lifestyle that contributed to his death.....He alone was responsible for his actions and his own death.....

As was, unfortunately, this woman.  She knew the consequences, that makes her responsible.

There are plenty of events around the world, including our own country, that we have difficulty explaining.  No need to focus in on this one.  If this event is news to you, you've been living in a cave.

[jdb]

"I'm not sure what discussion I wanted to spur with this, but man, that's screw up (sic)." - CF

Because it struck a chord with you and possibly after some dicussion of the matter you'll figure out why?

"The purpose of posting this article was to simply bring it to light." - CF

Well, that's different, but why bother, if not to point out that "those people" (not us) "over there" (not here) are screwed up (barbaric?)?

FWIW, I am NOT trying to be an donkey (which does require effort) but rather, I'm curious what you've gotten out of this so far, if anything.
jdb

[cannon_fodder]

First of all, it was in Wyoming that Shepard was mirdered.  That's about 1,200 miles from Houston.

Second, yes - it says something clear about the US and I'm *very* sure that people talked about it in other countries.  It said that there is a portion of the US that is violently homophobic and murderous and by the convictions that follows it said that the rest of US society does not tolerate such BS.  

The stoning says that portions of Kurdish society stone girls to death who love people of a different religion and mobs of people video record it and put it on YouTube.  It is what it is.  Those are the only conclusion you can draw from the events.

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
In your interesting view then, we are to ignore any negative world event?  All negative world events are good for is to call other people names?

Ignoring world events doesnt make them not happen.  Whether I pointed this out to you or not, those people still stoned the girl to death.  My pointing it out doesnt make it any better or worse, its simply a fact.  How many girls have to be stoned to death before I am allowed to discuss it as a negative event?  10?  100?  Over a thousand before it matters?

I believe I have covered this very carefully.  I have answered ALL your questions in detail.  I have explained my position and reasonings very carefully and have received nothing but target comments in response.  If, as you suggest, my intent was to condemn Kurdistan I would have said so - in case you have yet to notice, I am not a very tactful person.  My intent was to point out an event that I found troubling and get a reaction to it.

Your reaction appears to be "so what?"  Noted, thanks.

[jdb]

This just in,

"My intent was to point out an event that I found troubling and get a reaction to it." - CF

Well then,
Mission Accomplished!
Roger That.
jdb