Another Major League Soccer in Tulsa thread...

[USRufnex]

Had the day off and couldn't find a sharp stick to poke in my eye, so.........

the first MLS game I ever saw was at Mile High Stadium in Denver in 1996... the atmosphere and enthusiasm didn't hold a candle to what I'd experienced a decade earlier in Tulsa at Skelly Stadium for the Roughnecks... so I simply thought it'd only be a matter of time before Tulsa got its pro soccer team back...

Now Denver has a new stadium at Dick's Sporting Goods Park....

http://www.coloradorapids.com/


And Tulsa... well... I still think Tulsa would be a better longterm market for Major League Soccer than Denver, KC or Dallas...

If you want perfect examples of "behind the curve Tulsa," look no further than the numerous botched opportunities Tulsa's has had over the last decade or so to add Major League Soccer:

1993-1996. Tulsa would have had a team in 1996 if TU had opted for natural grass.  Spartan Stadium in San Jose had natural grass... Skelly had artificial turf.

San Jose got a team, Tulsa didn't.  TU offered to go with natural grass if the soccer people in Tulsa would pay for it.  But the soccer people lacked the $$$...

1994 Cost:  $1mil - $1.5 mil and Tulsa could have had a league owned team in MLS.

1997.  The Tulsa Project includes a 5,000 seat soccer/track & field facility that could be expanded to MLS specs.  Sportswriter John Klein of the Tulsa World wrote at the time: "If you like sports, and we assume you do since you're reading this, the Tulsa Project is a no-brainer... Sometime in the future, Major League Soccer will be back in Tulsa... How do we know this?  It's our business to know these things. It's our business to talk with the people who make decisions in sports... Ask them if they've talked to folks with MLS... They aren't interested right now for obvious
reasons -- there's no place to play."

The Tulsa Project goes down to defeat... and in
1998, MLS adds teams in Chicago and Miami.

Summer 2002.  MLS officials proactively approach Tulsa city officials about the prospects of placing a team here.  The league now wants local ownership and a stadium.  The proposed stadium is not included in the
Vision 2025 projects.

2003 Cost of a team (expansion fee):  $10mil

Fall 2005.  Global Development Partners, who'd just purchased MLS's DC United, come to Tulsa to propose/develop a project including a soccer stadium/mixed use residential for downtown Tulsa.  The soccer stadium part of the project falls apart after Global backs out of the DC soccer deal in Jan 2006 and no local owners are found with enough $$$ to make up the difference.

2005 Cost of a team (expansion fee):  $15mil

Spring 2007.  TU announces new press box/luxury suites, new seating and reduction of capacity at Skelly Stadium to around 30,000 to 31,000.

2007 Cost of a team (expansion fee now that David Beckham's in the league):  $30mil

[Breadburner]

Do it your-self.....If you want it so bad....

[RecycleMichael]

Can you tell us what cities have built soccer stadiums recently and what they cost to build and operate?

[cannon_fodder]

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Cities with an MLS team and where they currently play-

New York - Giants Stadium (NFL)
Los Angles (2 teams)- Rose Bowl (college football)
Chicago -  Soldier Field
Toronto -
Washington DC - RFK Stadium (NFL)
Boston (Foxborough) - Gillette Stadium (NFL)
Columbus - "Crew Stadium" $25mil
Kansas City - Arrowhead (NFL)
Denver - Mile High (MLB)
Dallas - Cotton Bowl
Houston -
Salt Lake City
http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/teams/index.jsp

The smallest town on that list (Salt lake) has a metro area about 700,000 greater than the Tulsa area.  Not to mention Salt Lake is a truly unique town with wads of money and international appeal thanks to their Olympic bid. Most of those cities have populations larger than our state, let alone our town.

Cities are starting to build for MLS soccer:
http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/sites-mls.html

Columbus has their own designated MLS stadium.  It cost them $25million to build and was the first for MLS.  It started the war.

The Carson (LA) Chivas plays in a $150,000,000.00 facility owned by U of Cal (soccer specific, kinda?).  

Dallas built a soccer complex for $65mil.  

NJ is now building one for $200 million.  

So Denver is building one for $130mil.

Salt Lake is schedule to break ground on a $155,000,000 stadium.

Toronto (newest expansion) is building one at a cost of $95mil.

DC is crying for a new stadium now and threatening to leave town if they dont get one.

Just based on that, I dont think this is a race Tulsa can afford to jump into.  The $10mil you touted for a stadium would be laughed at by MLS.  The average new stadium now is over $100,000,000.   They are not content to play second fiddle anymore and are leveraging every penny they can from cities.

We are too small, too poor, and do not have a world class stadium to give away.

Sorry.  MLS would be neat in Tulsa.

[Conan71]

What is the fan base in Tulsa these days?  I no longer follow soccer as neither of my daughters has ever played and I never stop and watch when it's on TV because:

1) I don't have a clue who any of the players are

2) Don't have an allegiance to a team,

3) I'm not one with long patience for stick and ball sports except for championship games and tend to lean more toward college sports for non-championship contests if I decide to have a camp-out in front of the TV.

I felt more connected to it in the '70's as I was playing Green Country soccer and there was a lot of interest in it.  It was sweeping the nation at the time.  Pele, the biggest soccer celeb most of us had heard of, was playing for the Cosmos, Roughnecks were in the same league.  We had a local team with very visible local players who you could see around town.  They were very real characters and they got a lot of press.

Is there still enough interest to bring in 10,000 to 20,000 fans?  I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I just have a hard time believing that we would wind up with the sort of crowds that the Roughnecks got.  I wish I could say I'd be there every game to support it, but I'm not one likely to buy a ticket and go.

[USRufnex]

I'll have to research more details so you can compare... lotsa data...

I'll have to get back to you on operating costs, and once I get a response that doesn't involve lotsa wishful thinking low-ball estimates those costs, I'll post it, RM...

New York will have their stadium as part of a huge mixed-use development to open in Harrison, NJ... groundbreaking was last fall...

http://www.redbullpark.com/stadium_vision.html

quote:Red Bull Park is a major component of the three-million-square-foot, multi-billion dollar Harrison MetroCentre, which will feature mid-rise and hi-rise office space, 3,500 residential units, 300,000 square feet of retail space, and over 10,000 decked parking spaces when completely built-out.

FC Dallas's new facilty is a couple of years old and is in Frisco (same city as the Drillers' Texas League rivals).  Frisco ISD plays high school football there... it'd be a good thing to check to see how much the facility has been used as a concert venue...

The interesting story here is ongoing... Salt Lake City plays in a larger version of Skelly Stadium but the team will be moved if the stadium deal in Sandy, UT falls apart... San Jose no longer has a team but Oakland A's owner Lew Wolf had a deal to build a brand new stadium with San Jose State Univ that fell apart just a few weeks ago...

St. Louis and Cleveland are still spinning their wheels trying to get stadiums built using TIF's... Milwaukee's efforts look to be dead...

Kansas City is trying to secure a TIF deal with anybody they can find for a stadium for 2009...

Which brings us to Tulsa.  Tulsa hasn't been mentioned at all by MLS in more than a year.

MLS's stated goal is to expand from 13 to 16 teams by 2010.

But unless two or three of these stadium deals come together in the next couple of years, Tulsa could be in a position to propose a renovated Skelly Stadium as host to either an expansion team or a relocated team (Kansas City most likely)... an expansion team in Tulsa w/o a new stadium seems like a longshot, but a sweetheart deal on lease/concessions/parking with TU at the new Skelly could tip the balance in Tulsa's favor... those skyboxes/luxury suites are a big part of why MLS wants its own facilities...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Cities with an MLS team and where they currently play-

New York - Giants Stadium (NFL)... groundbreaking for Red Bull Park was last fall but construction just started for the 25,000 stadium to be completed for 2008... cost to build stadium: $100mil "state-of-the-art" stadium which will feature a "European style roof/canopy"...additional $39.4 million in revenue bonds to finance the land acquisition...
http://www.redbullpark.com/news_081106.pdf

Los Angles (2 teams)- Home Depot Center (27k capacity soccer specific stadium opened June 2003)... cost: $150mil for the entire complex, but in the SanJose feasability study, cost for actual soccer stadium was around $60mil... from wikopedia, "The stadium has also been used for concerts, including two-night runs by Dave Matthews Band in 2003, 2004 and 2005."

Chicago -  Toyota Park (21,200 seat soccer specific stadium opened June 2006).. cost: over $100 million.

Toronto - BMO Field (20,148 seat soccer specific stadium opened April 28,2007)... I see different cost estimates... last at around $70  million...

Washington DC - RFK Stadium (the same Global people who were attracted to Tulsa by the potential of placing an MLS team here proposed a soccer stadium for DC)... problems with the proposed site have a lot to do with federal/local land rights...

Boston (Foxborough) - Gillette Stadium (NFL)-- Bob Kraft owns the stadium, the Patriots and the MLS team, so there is little financial incentive for him to look at a smaller facility for soccer... though rumblings persist...

Columbus - "Crew Stadium" $25mil (22,600 seat soccer specific stadium opened May 1999)

Kansas City - Arrowhead (NFL)... this is the team that should have been playing in Tulsa in 2006... new local owners sound very committed, but have met several stumbing blocks in getting a stadium built w/youth field in Johnson County... newest proposal is a mixed-use redevelopment concept that would include the Bannister Mall and Benjamin Plaza shopping centers, and the adjoining Benjamin Ranch property....

Denver - Dick's Sporting Goods Park (18,086 seats opened April 2007) cost:  estimated $131 million for entire project.

Dallas - Pizza Hut Park (21,193 seats opened August 2005)... constrution costs approx. $80mil

Houston - Univ of Houston's Robertson Stadium (had a similar refurb as to what is proposed for Skelly and curr has a capacity of 32,000 seats)... negotiations ongoing for a stadium shared with local school district, etc...

Salt Lake City - Univ of Utah's Rice-Eccles Stadium (45,000 seats)... Dave Checketts was granted the team only under the condition that SLC would be able to build an appropriate facilty...
http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/teams/index.jsp

Fixed your post.... at least, part of it. []

This link is probably as good as any to describe costs... good find...
http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/sites-mls.html


The problem with these cost estimates is some will include youth field complexes or mixed use costs.... tried to find good info but it gets confusing in a hurry...(wikipedia shows Tulsa's BOk arena as costing $183mil when I thought that was the cost of both the arena and the updates to the old convention center)...

Seems the costs from LaFortune varied and had ranged from $40mil to $60 mil for the soccer stadium portion of what was proposed back in 2003...

My point was that if Skelly had a grass field back in 1996, that would have satisfied MLS and the team wouldn't have even needed to pay an expansion fee or have local owners.

The 5,000 seat soccer/track stadium from the 1997 Tulsa Project would only have been a start... once again, had TU officials announced an $18mil project for Skelly that would reduce seating capacity and add a new press box with corporate/luxury suites, Tulsa could have had a team....... not sure if it could have been a league owned team or if MLS would have insisted on local ownership.

When I quote $10mil, $15mil and now $30mil... those are expansion fees... the longer you wait, the higher it gets... but I do think $30 mil is overpriced...

Hard to find official info, but an Arena Football team would require a $20mil upfront expansion fee and $60mil in assets? (not sure where I read this, though)...

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder



The smallest town on that list (Salt lake) has a metro area about 700,000 greater than the Tulsa area.  Not to mention Salt Lake is a truly unique town with wads of money and international appeal thanks to their Olympic bid. Most of those cities have populations larger than our state, let alone our town.

I understand your point Cannon_Fodder, but I want to point out that your stats are off.  Salt Lake City's MSA population is 1,067,722.  Tulsa's is 897,752.  That's only a difference of 150,000.  OKC's MSA has a population of 1,172,339, which is over 100,000 larger than Salt Lake.  Your other point about the economic factors was accurate.  Salt Lake is really a pretty small market, but its business climate is superior to Tulsa or OKC's.  The thing I don't understand is why ESPN analysts don't think NBA will ultimately work in OKC, even after the Ford Center was consistently sold out.

To see all MSA populations:
http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/CBSA-est2006-annual.html

[perspicuity85]

USRufnex, Tulsa will have a better chance of landing a MLS team when the entire metro area has a better concentric city focus, and downtown and midtown are viewed as high-equity brand names for real estate.  Tulsa MSA residents have to believe in Tulsa before most outsiders will.  Please see

this topic.

[cannon_fodder]

I was going off of the stated metro areas, which is based on how many people are in a stated radius from the town.  You data is probably better for comparison purposes.

But, its also worth noting SLC is the states city.  There are not competing cities.  Also, the tourism numbers in SLC are probably more favorable than Tulsa.  Just a better market overall, I'm sad to say.

[USRufnex]

Frankly Mr. Fodder, your opinions on this subject are not the final word on whether Major League Soccer is viable in the small market of Tulsa....... it's the opinions of MLS officials that matter.....

And they've stated publicly and in no uncertain terms that they feel Tulsa is a good market for MLS... please stop telling us YOU don't think Tulsa is good enough.

MLS officials think Tulsa IS good enough, and that SHOULD be good enough for you (I emphasize the word, "should")...

quotes from Don Garber, commission of Major League Soccer:

"There will be two expansion franchises announced by the end of the year to play in the 2005 season, and Tulsa and Oklahoma City will not both receive one. Garber said it's possible, although unlikely, that both could be shut out."

"Oklahoma has a massive youth soccer market and Tulsa has a tremendous history with the Roughnecks," Garber said. "Joe-Max Moore has played for the U.S. national team and in our league and Tulsa is a market that really seems to get passionate about local offerings. We had 14,000 fans and 3,500 season ticket commitments at the exhibition game on April 5 and that speaks well.

"We have been successful when we're one of the big games in town and Tulsa seems to be a community that would embrace a team and make it special. Oklahoma City is the same way. I believe the timing at some point will be there. The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us."

quote from Kansas City Wizards general manager Curt Johnson:

"The marketplace is a good one. It's ready, assuming an appropriate facility and owner can be found," Johnson said. "We had a tremendous crowd when we played there a couple of years ago. Tulsa certainly can be a good marketplace for professional soccer, I believe in that."

And TU soccer coach Tom McIntosh could certainly be counted upon to see if an upgraded Skelly Stadium could be useful for to attract a future MLS team:

"We'd have a team right now if we had the stadium and an ownership group," McIntosh said. "The MLS would love to have a team in Tulsa, but we don't have the proper facility here in town, and an ownership group really hasn't stepped forward."

If Clay Bennett of OKC can buy the Seattle Supersonics of the NBA for $350mil... I think there are a small number of Tulsans who could pay an MLS expansion fee at LESS THAN ONE TENTH that price-- or $30mil...

[perspicuity85]

USRufnex, I would love to see MLS come to Tulsa.  It seems that you are very dedicated to your cause, and stubborn as hell(which is usually the only way to get people to believe in a new idea).  I have a couple of questions: What are you currently doing to bring MLS to Tulsa?  And, is there currently an organization lobbying for a MLS team?

I would suggest, if you haven't already thought of it, organizing a MLS task force.  More importantly, you should investigate what things, other than just soccer-related, would make acquiring a MLS team more likely.  In my opinion, a completely re-vamped overall marketing approach is needed for Tulsa's unique culture to fully reach its potential.  There are thousands of people in Tulsa's MSA and nearby that are looking for the "cosmopolitan," or whatever you want to call it, culture that a lot of Tulsa truly has.  That community-centered culture is the same culture that would support MLS and believe the MLS could work in Tulsa.

[cannon_fodder]

I hope your right Rufnex.  I would love to see MLS come to Tulsa and would go to a game or two a year.  I'd certainly flip it on TV on the weekends.

Lets hope private interests including MLS think it is a worthwhile venture and step to the plate.  They'll certainly have my support (though only minimally on the financial side).  I'd just hate to see hordes of public money thrown at them.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Frankly Mr. Fodder, your opinions on this subject are not the final word on whether Major League Soccer is viable in the small market of Tulsa....... it's the opinions of MLS officials that matter.....

And they've stated publicly and in no uncertain terms that they feel Tulsa is a good market for MLS... please stop telling us YOU don't think Tulsa is good enough.

Why should he stop telling us his opinion? Do you feel as though your opinions are the only ones that are valid? Why do you insist on censoring those who might disagree with you? Based on those criteria, why should your opinions be heard, unless you happen to be "the final say" on the matter. Your "logic" would render all opinions invalid. It is a shame you have so little respect for the opinions of the very people you have relentlessly tried to sway to your opinion.

Fodder, please keep expressing your opinions. Don't be discouraged by those who have forgotten that's the reason why this forum exists.

[USRufnex]

Per usual, AJ... you've missed the point.

I can say MLS would be viable in Tulsa.
Cannon Fodder can say MLS would NOT be viable in Tulsa.

If Cannon Fodder would like to argue why the commissioner of Major League Soccer was wrong in proclaiming, "The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us," he is certainly welcome to do so...

But if he gives incomplete or inaccurate  information, I will call him on it.  And I expect that if I offer incomplete or inaccurate information, he can/will call me on it.

The reason why I started posting on these forums was because I needed to confront those people who made grossly inaccurate assertions about Global Development Partners and their plans for the East Village back in Nov 2005...

You were most definitely one of the worst of them.  

Hugs-n-kisses,


--Ruf