1957 Plymouth dig up

[T-Town Now]

All things considered, this was a pretty big undertaking for 1957. It sounds to me like a lot of precautions were taken to protect the car, and a lot of possibilities were considered in the preparation for storing the car.

1957 technology is what it was.

This is a gift from Tulsans in 1957 to Tulsans in 2007, and I think it's a wonderful one, regardless of what the car looks like.

And the 1957 Plymouth is the perfect car for it. Sure, it would be cooler if it were a Corvette, Thunderbird, or Cadillac Eldorado Brougham, but the 1957 Plymouth was a revelation in automotive styling at the time, and it literally sent the other automakers back to the drawing boards to redo their cars.

[Conan71]

Well call this my lucky day.  I just got back from "ground zero"- inside the fence.  I took photos but I have been asked not to do anything with them prior to tomorrow's events.  I'll post them next Monday.

I've been asked not to comment on the condition of the car (not saying its bad or good just asked not to say anything), but what I can say about the vault: it is constructed not unlike a swimming pool as the corners are rounded in the vault and the walls appear to be rounded to a transition with the floor.  On the west wall of the vault, the names "Valerie & Carol" are scrawled in the concrete wall.  I was told that that was the name of the Tulsarama queen and the runner-up.  I saw the time capsule behind the trunk, at least the top and ends are still intact on it, I don't have a clue about the bottom of it.

I spoke to several engineers and construction-types and no one seems to know any more than I do where the leaks came from.  Most speculation seems to be the lid or lid to vault joint.  We didn't obeserve any visible cracks on the walls.

Even at 10 feet, it's really hard to tell if it is mud or rust on the "bag".  Looks more like rust on the trunk side of the bag and mud on the hood side.  The outline of the car looks right, nothing looks sunken in.  

They are using the two original beams which run the length of the car and exit out past the bumpers, and they put two additional cross beams under the car for the lift today.  It should lift out just fine.  

I was told initially I had a 5 to 15% chance of getting next to the hole, so I feel very, very fortunate.  I had hoped to be down there during the lift-out tomorrow but was told the chance was even more remote.  The industry I work in is somewhat construction-related so that didn't hurt getting this chance.  

It was cool, cool, cool to see this bit of history up close.  Someone got me tix for tomorrow night's unveiling, (probably so I'd quit *****ing about the "eliteists") [}:)]

[sgrizzle]

another question, if the water did fill the vault at some point, how did the water get out?

[T-Town Now]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Well call this my lucky day.  I just got back from "ground zero"- inside the fence.  I took photos but I have been asked not to do anything with them prior to tomorrow's events.  I'll post them next Monday.

I've been asked not to comment on the condition of the car (not saying its bad or good just asked not to say anything), but what I can say about the vault: it is constructed not unlike a swimming pool as the corners are rounded in the vault and the walls appear to be rounded to a transition with the floor.  On the west wall of the vault, the names "Valerie & Carol" are scrawled in the concrete wall.  I was told that that was the name of the Tulsarama queen and the runner-up.  I saw the time capsule behind the trunk, at least the top and ends are still intact on it, I don't have a clue about the bottom of it.

I spoke to several engineers and construction-types and no one seems to know any more than I do where the leaks came from.  Most speculation seems to be the lid or lid to vault joint.  We didn't obeserve any visible cracks on the walls.

Even at 10 feet, it's really hard to tell if it is mud or rust on the "bag".  Looks more like rust on the trunk side of the bag and mud on the hood side.  The outline of the car looks right, nothing looks sunken in.  

They are using the two original beams which run the length of the car and exit out past the bumpers, and they put two additional cross beams under the car for the lift today.  It should lift out just fine.  

I was told initially I had a 5 to 15% chance of getting next to the hole, so I feel very, very fortunate.  I had hoped to be down there during the lift-out tomorrow but was told the chance was even more remote.  The industry I work in is somewhat construction-related so that didn't hurt getting this chance.  

It was cool, cool, cool to see this bit of history up close.  Someone got me tix for tomorrow night's unveiling, (probably so I'd quit *****ing about the "eliteists") [}:)]

Thanks for that update, Conan. Sounds to me like it might not be too bad. It would seem that they already know structurally what condition the car is in. If the frame were compromised with rust, I would imagine they'd have to use a bit more reinforcements to get it out of the hole.

I've restored cars and it's surprising how bad they can get and still be brought back as good as new, sometimes better than new since we often know where the weak points are and can fix them during the restoration.

[Conan71]

Good question Sgrizz.  There's still a puddle's depth of muddy water in the bottom.  All anyone was  speculating at this point is "I don't know".  

I doubt anyone will spend the money on an engineering study, nor bother to clean the vault to look that closely.  

My personal guess is it could have leached in and out the walls or any number of smaller cracks.  Sort of like the walls being an osmotic membrane.  Just like my basement- I've been getting seepage in my basement with the heavy rains.  I don't see any cracks, but yet the floor gets wet.  Perhaps when the soil around the vault would dry out, it would leach back out.  I open my basement window and run fans for a couple of days to dry.  I don't know if that's the best way to illustrate what I'm talking about but that's the best I can do right now.

My boss and I talked about it and it would have been a pretty simple affair to construct a gravity drain with a back-check to the CH basement or a storm sewer.  Who knows, maybe they do have a drain under the car and it backed up at some point with some other sewer work (pure speculation nothing more nothing less).  Details don't appear to have been overly well-documented from 1957.

[cannon_fodder]

Kind of random but I dont have a chance to tell this story much.  At the John Deere plant I worked at there is a 'time capsule.'  That is to say a 1974 John Deere front end loader.  They used it to construct the building and it got stuck inside at some point.  As in, they built around it.  It has its own little room, which is now used for storage.

Thought that was funny.

[sauerkraut]

Thanks for the good news Conan71- I was thinking the same thing, the base of the vault looks good and soild, The lid does not look good and that may be why they used all that gunite to try & seal it in 1957, the lids look like they reach only to the mid-point of the vault wall and are thin looking. From the sand & water stains on the cars plastic it looks to me like that's where all the water entered. The 2'of water in the vault my be the total amount leaked in since whenever the leak started, I can't see how it could of been full of water to the brim and had all that water leak out. The lid may not of leaked till many years after 1957, as cracks could of developed in the gunnite and the dripping started. They said the plastic wrap is air tight and in 3 layers and heat sealed also some guy in 1957 said the wrap could last 1,200 years. But any little tear or cut in the plastic would doom it. I feel very up beat about the car now. I don't hear nothing about it here in Ohio, I have to go to the internet. They would of done better to have used a solid 1-piece lid and maybe even lay a sheet of plastic around the top in 1957. Anyhoo, Thanks for the gift you folks of 1957 gave us here in 2007![]

[restored2x]

Wow - I guess I'm an optimist - but these recent pics (thanks!) actually show the car in much better shape than the ones I saw yesterday (guess it was the angle).

It won't be a perfect car - but I think there is a slight possibility that we may see this thing riding around at the Fair in a few months. I'm still holding on to that slight possibility.

Also - people name their cars - does this baby have a name? That would be a cool contest. Name the Belvedere. "Lazarus"? "Phoenix"? "Creature from the Tulsa Lagoon"? (VERY 50's)

[Lewis]

THis guy might be able to help....

[TurismoDreamin]

I think the car is going to be in better condition than what most people expect it to be. Parts of the car have been wrapped to protect individual components, such as the engine and interior. On top of all of that, the car is wrapped in three seperate layers. One of those layers are a rust resistent/inhibitor layer. Another thing you may want to take into account for is that the car itself was buried along with the METAL platform already below it, which is what I believe caused most of the rusty water. This platform was not protected. Another thing to consider would be what most people believe is the sunken trunk. If you consider the body of a Belvedere, you would notice that the rear portion of the car has fins. The sediment that has collected between the fins don't necessarily give depth to how "sunken" the trunk really is, and thats just to say if it has sunken in the first place. I, for one, am going to remain optimistic. Regardless if the car is in surprisingly excellent condition or if it becomes the largest rust bucket, it's the principle of the fact that this iconic car has meaning.

***EDIT: I just came across this picture and by the looks of it, the layers have been compromised and we may be looking at a very rusted or very dirty rear tail light...

[rwarn17588]

But isn't the cosmoline they coated it with brown, also? How can you tell it from rust?

[TurismoDreamin]

I didn't know about the cosmoline being brown. I thought it was white. Oh well, i'm not going to jump to conclusions until I see everything with all the covers taken off and the car cleaned and prepped for the event. I'm gonna try to stay as optimistic as possible til then.

[jiminy]

quote:Originally posted by TurismoDreamin

I think the car is going to be in better condition than what most people expect it to be. Parts of the car have been wrapped to protect individual components, such as the engine and interior. On top of all of that, the car is wrapped in three seperate layers. One of those layers are a rust resistent/inhibitor layer. Another thing you may want to take into account for is that the car itself was buried along with the METAL platform already below it, which is what I believe caused most of the rusty water. This platform was not protected. Another thing to consider would be what most people believe is the sunken trunk. If you consider the body of a Belvedere, you would notice that the rear portion of the car has fins. The sediment that has collected between the fins don't necessarily give depth to how "sunken" the trunk really is, and thats just to say if it has sunken in the first place. I, for one, am going to remain optimistic. Regardless if the car is in surprisingly excellent condition or if it becomes the largest rust bucket, it's the principle of the fact that this iconic car has meaning.

***EDIT: I just came across this picture and by the looks of it, the layers have been compromised and we may be looking at a very rusted or very dirty rear tail light...

Not good.  Not good at all.  I read a little story about this test lift and they said that water ran out.  What broke the bag?  Very disappointing, as I was still hoping for the best.  I think the best we can hope for now is that it is in some kind of restorable condition.  Unless that is cosmoline on the fin, but I doubt it.

[Breadburner]

I would say the weight of the soil on the trunk deck weighing the covering down on the points of the fins caused the tear in the plastic.....

[T-Town Now]

The car just looks very dirty to me. What you can see where the cover is torn is the rear taillamp area. The lens itself is plastic, so it won't rust. The color is uniform, and rust isn't uniform. You would see rust mostly in the form of a scaly deposit and this is still smooth.

What is most encouraging to me is under the rear bumper you can see the rear valance and the bottom of the rear quarter panel. Two areas VERY prone to rust on these cars, and they are still there, which means the car is intact.

The floorboards may be rotted, but those can be replaced. Anyone who has restored an old Mustang knows this is done frequently.

I think the car is going to be in better shape than we think.