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sgrizzle
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« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2007, 10:16:33 pm » |
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quote:
Originally posted by Lister
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Here's a bunch more pics:
http://www.tulsachevys.com/Images/buriedcar/index.html
Thanks for the link to the pics. Sorry to say, but judging from those pictures this thing is probably nothing but rust. It looks as though the cloth or whatever it is that's covering the trunk has even been eaten through with rust. Wouldn't matter anyway - where do you think all of that rust came from? There's nothing else in the vault made of corrosive material other than the car, right? I mean, look at this..
That is one of two layers of material meant to be completely airtight. The vault is buried in red dirt and the car is sitting on i-beams and jack stands. What you see on top of the trunk is dirt. |
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jiminy
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« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2007, 10:27:17 pm » |
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Well, I guess we can hope that a lot of that coloration is silt. It appears to be close to the same color as the dirt around there. That deck lid looks ominous though. Hope that is dirt or rust from the steel pallet/jacks. I just wonder, we've been through one of the rainiest periods I can remember, and still the vault wasn't as full as it apparently has been before. I guess that could mean that the leaks in the bottom that drain are more recent that those that let the water in. That's bad, because it means it could have spent a LOT of time submerged before the draining leaks developed. I don't think it floated, though, because it appears to be still centered in the vault. I would expect if it floated it would have gotten crossways.  |
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Wilbur
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« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2007, 06:09:58 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
At this point in time, I think I'm grateful I don't have a chance to win the car!
Well Wilbur, I think that is a very selfish and disrespecful attitude. I don't care if the car is a rust heap; if I were the official winner (I would be the legal heir of my parents and their winning entry) I would be honored to win this automobile and take my place in Tulsa history. It is not all about money or winning a pristine vintage 1950s car; it is all about being a part of Tulsa history.
I'm not trying to put a damper on the event, and I think the whole event should still go well. I don't think the condition of the car should have any affect on the event as a whole. My point was, if I had won the car, trying to get rid of the thing (other then to Borg Steel) would be next to impossible. Once that car filled with water ONCE, all of the electrical systems are toast, not to mention the rest of the interior. |
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daddys little squirt
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« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2007, 07:07:45 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
I don't think it floated, though, because it appears to be still centered in the vault. I would expect if it floated it would have gotten crossways.
Yeah, I think you're right. It actually would be better news had it floated. Still it could have remained airtight. |
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NCTulsan
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« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2007, 07:22:24 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Sharon King Davis said there are 3 layers of protection still on the car which could still be intact.
If Queen Sharon says it, then all is well. Regardless, this is still a very cool event. If I were the winner of the car, I would donate it to the Tulsa Historical Society. With their new, large facility, surely they could put it on display. This is an important piece of Tulsa history. I'm sure some generous car restorer would donate his/her time to make it presentable. |
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2007, 08:27:35 am » |
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If the plastic tarp held it may be OK, they said it was vacuum sealed, The one guy said in 1957 that the sheet could protect that car for 1,200 years.. also since the sheet looks flat, it could mean theres no water under it, otherwise the sheet would be lumpy with pools of water under it. If water got under the plastic it would be very bad the plastic would hold the water against the car and rust it away. It looks like to me the sheet is all brown on the outside from water and sand that was leaking in from above, that could of gave the car the look of being under water. if that vault was filled to the rim I don't see how the water could of all drained out thru the cement cracks so fast. it also does not mean the water was in the vault for 50 years, the water could of started leaking in 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. Perhaps the first 10 or 20 years the vault was dry. To see those pictures is like getting hit in the gut with a ball bat. I'm hoping that plastic sheet stayed air tight.
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Proud Global Warming Deiner! Earth Is Getting Colder NOT Warmer!
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2007, 08:39:37 am » |
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Everyone seems to be saying that the red color means rust, the color could be that of the dirt that leaked in over the years.That red stuff on the trunk lid is all dirt, the pools of water there could be from rains leaking in water overhead, and collecting on the trunk lid and the bottom of the vault. A better way to have done something like this would be to have put the vault inside a bigger vault and then wrap the car in many layers of air tight plastic, and maybe even wrap the outter vault in a plastic sheet.. To me the failure seems to be from the vault lid. I understand Tulsa had a big flood in 1959 but the vault area was not underwater from what I know. The water in the vault seems clear no oil traces, or things like that, even a small amount of oil would leave those color oil streaks in the water. It may not be that bad..
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Proud Global Warming Deiner! Earth Is Getting Colder NOT Warmer!
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Conan71
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« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2007, 09:11:11 am » |
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A couple people mentioned water pressure. The depth of the vault doesn't appear to be more than 8 feet. At the bottom of the vault, it would be around 18psi. At the top of the car, assuming it is about 4 feet from the top of the vault, if the vault were ever completely flooded, it would have been about 15 psi at the roof line. IMO, not enough pressure to deform the metal.
They used thicker steel panels back then as well.
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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
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NellieBly
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« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2007, 09:28:35 am » |
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The big crane to do a test lift just arrived. Big crowd down there.
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tulsa1603
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« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2007, 09:37:50 am » |
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Hmm....Best case scenario: The plastic held. But what about condensation?
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T-Town Now
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« Reply #131 on: June 14, 2007, 10:05:04 am » |
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I'm holding out that the car may not be as bad as we think it is.
If the vault were full of water at some point, would that not have moved the car somewhat? It appears to be sitting in the vault pretty straight.
There were cans of oil and a gas can packed in the vault outside of the car bag. You can see the gas can covered in rust at the end of the car. This alone could account for the rusty water.
The fact that no gasoline was found in the water in the vault is a good sign. If the car were a rust bucket, the gas tank would have rusted as well.
When they drained the water out of the vault, I heard nothing about water draining from inside the car onto the vault floor, which it would have if the car were full of water. This makes me think the car is intact.
From what I can see of the car, the top of it looks fine. You can clearly see the outline of the roof, front fenders, fins, etc., and one man who saw them pull a vacuum on the car bag back in 1957 commented it looked exactly the same to him as it did in 1957 before they closed the vault.
Also, if we don't hear any bad news today about the car, I think it's going to be OK. I heard that they might replace the rusty skids the car is sitting on (another source of rust in the water), and they will have to lift the car to do that. This means the frame will have to support the weight of the car. If it's rusty, the car will twist and flex at a minimum when it's lifted. So, if all goes well replacing the skids, that tells me the frame and body overall are stable.
No one will know for certain until tomorrow, but I'm going to hope the car is in decent shape. At any rate, it's a historical moment in time and it's nice to be able to be a part of it.
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #132 on: June 14, 2007, 10:24:37 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Unfortunately Kevin, we had enough rain in the last few days to fill that vault with 3' - so that water would still be clear.
Perhaps for our next time:
So, car+grease/cosmo+spray foam sealant+ shrink plastic wrap + pressurize with neutral gas + sturdier lose plastic wrap + more gas + steel girders + reinforced concrete vault inside water proofed + sealed top that extends 2 feet over on all sides that is waterproofed + more gas in the vault + seal the outside + rubberize it + make sure the vault is at the TOP of a hill instead of at the bottom of one (downhill from the BOA tower to City Hall).
Or, perhaps cooler yet, seal the car on an used floor of some building and brick it in. Would solve the rust issues - now just keep the mice out (no food + sealed with brick, should be ok).
Bah, still holding out hope. But a set back to be sure. Wonder if it will hurt the turnout?
You bring up good ideas but they would be very expensive to do. I think a flaw with this vault was the 3-piece lid because those joints are places for water to enter plus it does not look like it sealed well around the edges of the vault where the lid and vault wall meet. They should of put a plastic wrap on the outside of the vault too. Also, I read that that they did test and check the soil around the outside of the vault for water and the vault bottom was dry a few years ago. if the vault was full to the brim of water it would have of had to leak out into the surrounding soil and the outside of the vault would of been muddy but it was found to be dry. That 2' of water in the vault may have been all the water that leaked in from the past 50 years (or when ever it started to leak). The idea of a above ground vault is also intresting, that would be more secure against water and mother nature, cheaper to do too. |
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MichaelC
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« Reply #133 on: June 14, 2007, 10:41:13 am » |
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quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
If the vault were full of water at some point, would that not have moved the car somewhat? It appears to be sitting in the vault pretty straight.
Not necessarily. It's probably strapped or bolted on to the platform to prevent sliding around while inserted. It would be a bit weighted down. Not sure what the floating potential of a Belvedere normally is, it's probably a relatively heavy car. But, we'll find out tomorrow. I'm still optimistic about it all too. I don't guess condition matters too much to me. |
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #134 on: June 14, 2007, 11:46:08 am » |
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A pressurized vault would be the way to go.
Could have a meter relaying the pressure inside.
If the vault is "pushing out", nothing's going to be leaking in.
I agree, the 3-piece lid was a big boo.. if anything, a single piece air-tight dome (think "diving bell") that sits over the vault / car... (the air-pressure thing).
And/Or, have some sort of sump pump activated if water gets in. Probably not as reliable as simply keeping the fault under pressure.
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