City Hall Consolidation (purchase of One Technolog

[Hometown]

Okay RM, that's pretty convincing.  New hotel may make sense.  

Now, we've seen some numbers about what the city will save.  What we haven't seen is what a classic Modern civic center would be worth with time and careful restoration.

How would you figure the economic value of the old movie houses?  Many cities restored one of their old movie houses as a performing arts theatre.  Oakland's Paramount is quite famous for that and they are now restoring another – the old Fox.  What is the value of those restored theatres to Oakland.  Those kind of issues are pretty esoteric but in a real sense just as important to a city's bottom line.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Okay RM, that's pretty convincing.  New hotel may make sense.  

Now, we've seen some numbers about what the city will save.  What we haven't seen is what a classic Modern civic center would be worth with time and careful restoration.

We may "need" a new hotel or two to help attract certain large conventions.  The problem is, we don't have sufficient market for a new hotel, let alone two.  The city's own hotel market study told us that no full-service hotel is likely to be built in downtown Tulsa without substantial subsidies.  Has everyone forgotten that we have not been able to attract a single experienced developer to build a hotel on the pre-cleared site across Denver from the arena?  And now the mayor would have us believe we can find a hotel developer to buy the city hall property, pay to demolish the city hall and parking deck and build a new hotel???  What alternative reality does she occupy?

The mayor and the Whirled keep telling us that the city hall study shows we'll save money.  But what they've shown us so far suggests otherwise.  To come up with the so-called $15 million savings, they combined the operating costs of the current facilities with the $24 million of deferred maintenance and compared that with just the operating costs of One Tech, ignoring the $67 million capital cost of getting there.  Highly unusual, not to say dishonest.

[Wrinkle]

A bit of math:

One $67.1M Bond at 6%APR/30 years

Results in a monthly mortgage payment of approximately $402,298.40 (o.k., exactly)

That's $4,827,580.80 per year.

Just for the mortgage.

Think I heard there were 750,000 sq ft in this building, which would mean that $6.44/Sq Ft rates are required just to pay the mortgage.

Typical rates for First Class Office Space in downtown Tulsa are between $12-$16/sq. ft.

So, less than half of the potential rental income remains available for MAINTENANCE, Insurance (the City won't be able to Self-Insure like it does for its' own stuff here), and Taxes (this requires some clearification as to whether or not the building is tax exempt, since it leases to non-governmental organizations, and the Authority will be operating a for-profit enterprize).

In addition, there's other overhead expenses like general utilities (not for tenants, City included), Leasing Office, tenant space improvements and remodels for new tenants, advertising, personel costs, window washers, a vehicle or two, vacancy factors (usually around 15%) and a building fund for long term maintenance items like roof replacement.

IF all that can be covered for the remaining $5.60/sq ft per year, then the numbers should prove it.

So, is the City going to lease its' space at the $12-$16/sq ft rate to make it all work?

Or, was the plan just to dump $9-$12M/year into the Authority's budget each year?

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Another hotel is needed to attract the medium size conventions that we want.  Downtown hotels don't really compete with each other, they complement each other.

With all due respect, that doesn't make sense.

Classic Spincycle. The convention biz is dead. I  bet it winds up as a casino/hotel.

[RecycleMichael]

Gee doublea...just because your emloyment doesn't utilize conventions does not mean the entire convention business is dead.

How about this story about how the business is doing well...

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2007/06/04/daily14.html?from_msnbc=1

or this one...

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/orl-convention2706apr27,0,5773040.story?coll=orl-business-headlines

or this one...

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=18414

or this one...

http://www.presstelegram.com/outlook/ci_5290961

Do you just argue every point without thinking?

Once again, you are either ignorant or so self-centered that you don't have a clue about what others do.

[Wrinkle]

BTW, just remembered, this building was developed originally using a TIF.

I have no idea, but it would seem the TIF would have had conditions in the agreement which would void it in the event of failure (i.e., bankruptcy, insolvency) of the building owner.

Never mind the questions about appropriate use of TIF's.

Anyone know the disposition of this TIF?

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Double A


Classic Spincycle. The convention biz is dead. I  bet it winds up as a casino/hotel.

The convention biz is not dead, the era of large conventions has however lost out to regionalized conventions which is actually better news for us.

Plus, a downtown hotel/casino wouldn't necessarily be bad from a city standpoint since places like cherokee are pulling casino patrons outside of the city.

[TulsaSooner]

So no thoughts on One Tech NOT being a "One Stop Shop" due to Municipal Court?  They'll either have to have identical cashiering operations in two places, or folks will have to travel from Muni Court to One Tech to pay.

Or something, *gasp*, new will have to be developed by the court folks.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaSooner

So no thoughts on One Tech NOT being a "One Stop Shop" due to Municipal Court?  They'll either have to have identical cashiering operations in two places, or folks will have to travel from Muni Court to One Tech to pay.

Or something, *gasp*, new will have to be developed by the court folks.

Don't they have to travel now?

[TulsaSooner]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle
Don't they have to travel now?

Yes, across the plaza.  

Just seems crazy to me they'd assess costs in court and then tell them to travel, and park again, to the One Tech building to pay the fine.  Or, they'll have to have duplicate cashiering staff in court.

Mainly, I'm wondering why the court/police building isn't included in the consolidation.  Seems to me that to maximize your savings and property value, you'd want to include as many buildings as possible in the move.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaSooner

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle
Don't they have to travel now?

Yes, across the plaza.  

Just seems crazy to me they'd assess costs in court and then tell them to travel, and park again, to the One Tech building to pay the fine.  Or, they'll have to have duplicate cashiering staff in court.

Mainly, I'm wondering why the court/police building isn't included in the consolidation.  Seems to me that to maximize your savings and property value, you'd want to include as many buildings as possible in the move.

I'm sure the final fate of the buildings they are leaving is factored in. If someone wanted to buy the current building, the story might be different.

[Hometown]

To the extent that the mayor's proposed move would bring additional city employees to downtown, the proposal is a good thing.  A couple of years ago I suggested in this forum that city, state and federal governments should consolidate their Tulsa operations downtown to bolster downtown's bid to stay alive.

Government picks winners and losers everyday and government could choose to make downtown a going concern.

The building the city is considering is quite attractive and would be a positive reflection on Tulsa.

But it's not just about where we are going but also what we are leaving behind.

One of the things that concerns me about abandoning civic center is that there is already a nexus of folks there doing government business and the proposed move would disperse that concentration of people.

Also, when we try to measure the value of Tulsa's old Modern civic center I am reminded of my father clearing out my grandfather's house on Charles Page Boulevard after my grandfather's death.  The house was full of quality wood furniture that my father believed had no value because it was old.  The furniture was sent off to Goodwill.  Decades later when I began purchasing furniture for my home, tastes had shifted and wood was once more in style, but by that time even the top line wood furniture did not compare in quality to the furniture that my father had gotten rid of.

Now, I have a very low opinion of folks charged with preservation in this town.  I would be ashamed to call myself a preservationist if I had spent my adult life here because Tulsa has failed miserably at preserving her past.  There is nothing in the local mindset to suggest we will change.  There is no meaningful support for preservation in this town.

Unfortunately, the best of Tulsa was built back in the day and as we redevelop the "new" just isn't in the same class as the "old."  If we could ever find anyone to pay the bills that might change, but in the meantime I am not convinced that Tulsa will be able to muster a downtown facility that would equal what our city did in the 60s when it built civic center.

I believe we should find another spot for the new hotel, stop the upcoming remodeling of convention center, tear out all the later additions to civic center and civic plaza and hire the best designers and a name architect to restore our civic center and make it a tribute to Mid-Century Modernism, something that Tulsa has a significant amount of.  City Hall should be restored and utilized as a government facility.

But I'm not counting on anything like that ever happening.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle


Plus, a downtown hotel/casino wouldn't necessarily be bad from a city standpoint since places like cherokee are pulling casino patrons outside of the city.

Would that really make a diff?  People will go in with pockets full of cash and nothing to spend when they come out. [}:)]

[Conan71]

HT- If you look around, there's been lots of preservation.  Many private investors have sunk millions into preserving buildings downtown and elsewhere in older commercial districts.

I just don't see the point in preserving the City Hall- it wasn't "modern" done perfect.  Since I haven't been one of the bigger horn-blowers for the BOK Center, I haven't paid close attention to the reno of the Maxwell Center, but I hadn't heard anything about changing the exterior so much as the interior.  I think you will still be able to discern the modern architecture on that building.

[MichaelC]

More at Tulsa World

quote:After more than five hours of discussion, the City Council decided Saturday to delay a vote set for this week on whether to approve the consolidation of City Hall into One Technology Center.

Councilor Cason Carter said he thinks it is important that given the amount of information on hand, the council take the necessary time to understand all of the assumptions and all of the risks before making a decision.

"That's what we are doing," he said. "This is about whether we will save taxpayers money at the end of the day."

The council is expected to vote on the issue in July.

During a special meeting Saturday, the council spent three hours asking Economic Development Director Don Himelfarb about the risks and how the assumptions were derived in the purchase analysis.

The group then spent more than two hours in closed session to discuss confidential information.

The administration has said that if the move is approved, the city would spend no more than $67.1 million to consolidate 1,000 employees into that site. That cost includes the building purchase price, which sources knowledgeable about the deal say is $52.25
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million.

The remaining $14.85 million would fund relocation costs, security, consultant work and other capital costs related to the move.