River Plan- Public Infrastructure

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

That's the point. I don't like this plan for other reasons. But the "its not our development, we won't pay for it" argument is bad. All the cities in the area stand to benefit.

Much agreed.  When the hub of a metropolitan area gains something, every suburb benefits, and vice-versa.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

That's the point. I don't like this plan for other reasons. But the "its not our development, we won't pay for it" argument is bad. All the cities in the area stand to benefit.

Much agreed.  When the hub of a metropolitan area gains something, every suburb benefits, and vice-versa.

Wonder if any TV coverage is being provided of the Kaiser Arkansas River Tax debate by TV Networks Telemundo or Univision?

Reason being:  Our Meso-American Guest-Workers are a major contributor to the Tulsa County Sales Tax collections.  

While our Meso-American Guest Workers may or may not avoid the FICA, Federal Income Tax and State Income Tax burden from their illegal alien employment status, they definitely feel the SALES TAX bite every time they buy goods and groceries in City of Tulsa:  

8.517% of EVERY purchase.

Too bad, but these Guest Workers won't get a Vote on the Kaiser River Tax.

Where they ARE voting now along the River is with their FEET.

Anyone spending any time along the Tulsa River Parks area along the Arkansas River will notice a growing presence of our non-English speaking guest workers making free use of River Parks.  

For the simple reason that it is LOW-COST recreation, it is fairly anonymous, and they don't have to pay admission like at the former Bell's or Big Splash.

They can freely relax, promenade, picnic, cook-out, use the playgrounds for their children, play soccer, or just leisurely loaf, and if so inclined, fish FOR FREE from along the 31st Street Pedestrian Bridge: Free protein.

The young male Meso-American Guest Workers who are laid-off work during the workweek, also like to hang out around the "hubs" at 11st, 21st, 31st, and 41st streets at Riverside Drive.  

They like to sit around, talk, and drink beer - all day, and catch a nap on the picnic tables or under the shade trees when they start feeling the alcohol.  Again, low cost recreation for them.  

Doesn't anyone else notice??

Will this changing demographic environment along the River deter those white-bread WASP YP's, "Mid-Town Elitists", and south Tulsa White-Flight from using these future Kaiser River Plan entertainment HUBS?  

Kind of like the Whittier Square Area, 61st and Peoria, and East Tulsa have totally changed, becoming Little Mexico's........and they are rapidly displacing the indigenous population.

I think if we proceed with the "Kaiser River Development" plan, we will someday surprisingly discover:

BUILD IT, and they Will NOT come.

At least, the affluent clientele the Establishment is looking to for the River Plan "Economic Development" recreational/entertainment spending.  They will have fled to Bixby, joining former City Councilor John Benjamin, or to Owasso, Jenks, etc. and other points south and north.

By then, the Rooney, Flint, Lorton, and other local Oligarch controlling families will having laughingly skipped off to the bank to deposit their over-brimming construction company & bond underwriting proceeds from the Kaiser River Tax.

[^]

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

That's the point. I don't like this plan for other reasons. But the "its not our development, we won't pay for it" argument is bad. All the cities in the area stand to benefit.

Much agreed.  When the hub of a metropolitan area gains something, every suburb benefits, and vice-versa.

Wonder if any TV coverage is being provided of the Kaiser Arkansas River Tax debate by TV Networks Telemundo or Univision?

Reason being:  Our Meso-American Guest-Workers are a major contributor to the Tulsa County Sales Tax collections.  

While our Meso-American Guest Workers may or may not avoid the FICA, Federal Income Tax and State Income Tax burden from their illegal alien employment status, they definitely feel the SALES TAX bite every time they buy goods and groceries in City of Tulsa:  

8.517% of EVERY purchase.

Too bad, but these Guest Workers won't get a Vote on the Kaiser River Tax.

Where they ARE voting now along the River is with their FEET.

Anyone spending any time along the Tulsa River Parks area along the Arkansas River will notice a growing presence of our non-English speaking guest workers making free use of River Parks.  

For the simple reason that it is LOW-COST recreation, it is fairly anonymous, and they don't have to pay admission like at the former Bell's or Big Splash.

They can freely relax, promenade, picnic, cook-out, use the playgrounds for their children, play soccer, or just leisurely loaf, and if so inclined, fish FOR FREE from along the 31st Street Pedestrian Bridge: Free protein.

The young male Meso-American Guest Workers who are laid-off work during the workweek, also like to hang out around the "hubs" at 11st, 21st, 31st, and 41st streets at Riverside Drive.  

They like to sit around, talk, and drink beer - all day, and catch a nap on the picnic tables or under the shade trees when they start feeling the alcohol.  Again, low cost recreation for them.  

Doesn't anyone else notice??

Will this changing demographic environment along the River deter those white-bread WASP YP's, "Mid-Town Elitists", and south Tulsa White-Flight from using these future Kaiser River Plan entertainment HUBS?  

Kind of like the Whittier Square Area, 61st and Peoria, and East Tulsa have totally changed, becoming Little Mexico's........and they are rapidly displacing the indigenous population.

I think if we proceed with the "Kaiser River Development" plan, we will someday surprisingly discover:

BUILD IT, and they Will NOT come.

At least, the affluent clientele the Establishment is looking to for the River Plan "Economic Development" recreational/entertainment spending.  They will have fled to Bixby, joining former City Councilor John Benjamin, or to Owasso, Jenks, etc. and other points south and north.

By then, the Rooney, Flint, Lorton, and other local Oligarch controlling families will having laughingly skipped off to the bank to deposit their over-brimming construction company & bond underwriting proceeds from the Kaiser River Tax.

[^]

In most cities award public work to local companies is considered a good idea, keeps the dollars local. According to the Bear it's a criminal offence.

Have you heard of bidding?

[rwarn17588]

Ummm, I was at Riverparks last week, and I saw people of all stripes loafing, playing with their kids, etc.

You know, people doing what people do at parks.

You know, Friendly Bear, I saw a lot of black people out enjoying themselves, too.

Horrors!!! <sarcasm>

Sheesh.

[RecycleMichael]

I was at RiverParks last week. I was the fat white guy.

I am surprised you missed me. Most people can see me from a distance.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I was at RiverParks last week. I was the fat white guy.

I am surprised you missed me. Most people can see me from a distance.

Were you the one going in and out of the men's restroom......

[swake]

And dam and waterway construction is very specialized work, do Manhattan and Flintco even do that kind of work?

Bear, you keep tossing around these names as conspirators and benefactors. First, I'm not really sure how the Lortons are supposed to profit at all on the river and I don't think this is the kind of construction that Manhattan and Flintco even would bid on. So quit talking out your donkey.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by swake

And dam and waterway construction is very specialized work, do Manhattan and Flintco even do that kind of work?

Bear, you keep tossing around these names as conspirators and benefactors. First, I'm not really sure how the Lortons are supposed to profit at all on the river and I don't think this is the kind of construction that Manhattan and Flintco even would bid on. So quit talking out your donkey.

Sure they would bid on it....And then sub it out......

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

quote:Originally posted by swake

And dam and waterway construction is very specialized work, do Manhattan and Flintco even do that kind of work?

Bear, you keep tossing around these names as conspirators and benefactors. First, I'm not really sure how the Lortons are supposed to profit at all on the river and I don't think this is the kind of construction that Manhattan and Flintco even would bid on. So quit talking out your donkey.

Sure they would bid on it....And then sub it out......

Name a single dam in the entire United States, or the world for that matter with Manhattan, that either company has built. Find one.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

And dam and waterway construction is very specialized work, do Manhattan and Flintco even do that kind of work?

Bear, you keep tossing around these names as conspirators and benefactors. First, I'm not really sure how the Lortons are supposed to profit at all on the river and I don't think this is the kind of construction that Manhattan and Flintco even would bid on. So quit talking out your donkey.

First, why does the Forum Administrator let you get by with personal insults.  This is a public policy forum, and if they were doing a FAIR job, they would be block, editing, or deleting post where you hurl personal invectives.

So, just stop with the personal insults.  I'm not going to get down in the hog swill with you; I'm just not.

Back on Thread:

Easy answer on the Lorton's:

The Lorton's are reportedly principal shareholders of F&M Bank & Trust Co.

An F&M Bank subsidiary received one-half of the Vision 2025 GARVEE Bond underwriting, under a sweet-heart NO-BID award from the County.

You can guess who received the other 1/2.....A BOK subsidiary called Oppenheimer, that just coincidentally happened to be run by Commissioner Dirty Bob Dick's "DEAR" friend - JOHN PIERCEY.

Currently, the embarrassingly prosperous former city Economic Development Director is the County Bond Underwriting Advisor...........

If it's a county tax, I expect the two financial institutions will divide the spoils and get a total reprise of their non-competitive underwriting award for the Kaiser River Tax.

The one thing you can be sure of if that if you do NOT competitively bid for the bond underwriting, the public cannot be assured that the LEAST COST financing method was obtained.

Least Cost financing protects the public purse.  Our money.  Seems prudent, don't you think??

Get Goldman Sachs, A.G. Edwards, and other involved in the bidding, and there may be tremendous cost savings.

Part of the local connected crony network also involves local bond attorneys and selected accountants who simply re-copy old bond underwriting prospectuses, collect a large fee, and then re-cycle a portion of their fees back to fund other Public Tax Grabs.

It's part of the connected crony network that re-cycles our tax dollars to their bank accounts and then fronts a portion of it for the next Sales Tax or Bond Issue.  

The U.S. Attorney's Office refer to it as "Pay-to-Play".  Mr. Sparks put us into the picture of his $25K Pay-to-Play contribution on the Vision 2025 Sales Tas increase.  When he wasn't selected, he went public.  Remember?

Even with competitive bidding as required by State Law, there are many ways for the local authorities and their connected construction company cronies and associated sub-contractors to rig the bidding.  How?

For instance, what we saw at TAIT over a period of years and years were draconian bidding requirements that were virtually impossible for an HONEST bidder to comply with.

So, under the General's leadership, we saw honest businessmen, contractors, and tradesmen avoid bidding.  As a result, they frequently had only ONE bidder on an airport project.  Guess who?

Why, because their connected-crony bidders could easily bid to the very stringent bid requirements and penalties for one, very simple reason:

They KNEW they would never be held accountable to the contract terms.  The FIX was in.

And, with a multitude of CHANGE ORDERS (Boy they really LOVE change orders at TAIT and at the County), they made back every red cent then some for the seed money they fronted to promote higher sales and bond taxes, again and again and again and again.

Happens every day in:  

The Banana Republic of Tulsa.....

[]

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

And dam and waterway construction is very specialized work, do Manhattan and Flintco even do that kind of work?

Bear, you keep tossing around these names as conspirators and benefactors. First, I'm not really sure how the Lortons are supposed to profit at all on the river and I don't think this is the kind of construction that Manhattan and Flintco even would bid on. So quit talking out your donkey.

Easy answer on the Lorton's:

The Lorton's are reportedly principal shareholders of F&M Bank & Trust Co.

An F&M Bank subsidiary received one-half of the Vision 2025 GARVEE Bond underwriting, under a sweet-heart NO-BID award from the County.

You can guess who received the other 1/2.....A BOK subsidiary called Oppenheimer, that just coincidentally happened to be run by Commissioner Dirty Bob Dick's "DEAR" friend - JOHN PIERCEY.

Currently, the embarrassingly prosperous former city Economic Development Director is the County Bond Underwriting Advisor...........

If it's a county tax, I expect the two financial institutions will divide the spoils and get a total reprise of their non-competitive underwriting award for the Kaiser River Tax.

The one thing you can be sure of if that if you do NOT competitively bid for the bond underwriting, the public cannot be assured that the LEAST COST financing method was obtained.

Least Cost financing protects the public purse.  Our money.  Seems prudent, don't you think??

Get Goldman Sachs, A.G. Edwards, and other involved in the bidding, and there may be tremendous cost savings.

Part of the local connected crony network also involves local bond attorneys and selected accountants who simply re-copy old bond underwriting prospectuses, collect a large fee, and then re-cycle a portion of their fees back to fund other Public Tax Grabs.

It's part of the connected crony network that re-cycles our tax dollars to their bank accounts and then fronts a portion of it for the next Sales Tax or Bond Issue.  

The U.S. Attorney's Office refer to it as "Pay-to-Play".  Mr. Sparks put us into the picture of his $25K Pay-to-Play contribution on the Vision 2025 Sales Tas increase.  When he wasn't selected, he went public.  Remember?

Even with competitive bidding as required by State Law, there are many ways for the local authorities and their connected construction company cronies and associated sub-contractors to rig the bidding.  How?

For instance, what we saw at TAIT over a period of years and years were draconian bidding requirements that were virtually impossible for an HONEST bidder to comply with.

So, under the General's leadership, we saw honest businessmen, contractors, and tradesmen avoid bidding.  As a result, they frequently had only ONE bidder on an airport project.  Guess who?

Why, because their connected-crony bidders could easily bid to the very stringent bid requirements and penalties for one, very simple reason:

They KNEW they would never be held accountable to the contract terms.  The FIX was in.

And, with a multitude of CHANGE ORDERS (Boy they really LOVE change orders at TAIT and at the County), they made back every red cent then some for the seed money they fronted to promote higher sales and bond taxes, again and again and again and again.

Happens every day in:  

The Banana Republic of Tulsa.....

[]

quote:
Easy answer on the Lorton's:

The Lorton's are reportedly principal shareholders of F&M Bank & Trust Co.

An F&M Bank subsidiary received one-half of the Vision 2025 GARVEE Bond underwriting, under a sweet-heart NO-BID award from the County.

The Lorton's do not own F&M, the Davis family does.

quote:
You can guess who received the other 1/2.....A BOK subsidiary called Oppenheimer, that just coincidentally happened to be run by Commissioner Dirty Bob Dick's "DEAR" friend - JOHN PIERCEY.

Currently, the embarrassingly prosperous former city Economic Development Director is the County Bond Underwriting Advisor...........

If it's a county tax, I expect the two financial institutions will divide the spoils and get a total reprise of their non-competitive underwriting award for the Kaiser River Tax.

The one thing you can be sure of if that if you do NOT competitively bid for the bond underwriting, the public cannot be assured that the LEAST COST financing method was obtained.

Least Cost financing protects the public purse. Our money. Seems prudent, don't you think??

Get Goldman Sachs, A.G. Edwards, and other involved in the bidding, and there may be tremendous cost savings.

Part of the local connected crony network also involves local bond attorneys and selected accountants who simply re-copy old bond underwriting prospectuses, collect a large fee, and then re-cycle a portion of their fees back to fund other Public Tax Grabs.

Hey, if George Kaiser and friends wanted to make a buck on this, not donating $111 million dollars would have been a great start, don't you think?

Oh, and Oppenheimer is a massive mutual fund

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Ummm, I was at Riverparks last week, and I saw people of all stripes loafing, playing with their kids, etc.

You know, people doing what people do at parks.

You know, Friendly Bear, I saw a lot of black people out enjoying themselves, too.

Horrors!!! <sarcasm>

Sheesh.

It's not a racial issue with me personnally.  

It's a REALITY issue:  

If one ethnic group eventually takes over a public park, the other ethnic groups avoid it:

Like the Plague.

It's called:  Tribalism.

It happened at Mohawk Park many times before.  African American teen-agers would congregate in a certain area, give smouldering stares to any other non-blacks who happened to blunder by, and simply take over.

The same is slowly happening at the River Parks.

When people start feeling uncomfortable, they go elsewhere and don't come back.

NO MATTER HOW MUCH IN TAXES IS SPENT TO LURE THEM BACK.

That unfortunately, is REALITY.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

And dam and waterway construction is very specialized work, do Manhattan and Flintco even do that kind of work?

Bear, you keep tossing around these names as conspirators and benefactors. First, I'm not really sure how the Lortons are supposed to profit at all on the river and I don't think this is the kind of construction that Manhattan and Flintco even would bid on. So quit talking out your donkey.

Easy answer on the Lorton's:

The Lorton's are reportedly principal shareholders of F&M Bank & Trust Co.

An F&M Bank subsidiary received one-half of the Vision 2025 GARVEE Bond underwriting, under a sweet-heart NO-BID award from the County.

You can guess who received the other 1/2.....A BOK subsidiary called Oppenheimer, that just coincidentally happened to be run by Commissioner Dirty Bob Dick's "DEAR" friend - JOHN PIERCEY.

Currently, the embarrassingly prosperous former city Economic Development Director is the County Bond Underwriting Advisor...........

If it's a county tax, I expect the two financial institutions will divide the spoils and get a total reprise of their non-competitive underwriting award for the Kaiser River Tax.

The one thing you can be sure of if that if you do NOT competitively bid for the bond underwriting, the public cannot be assured that the LEAST COST financing method was obtained.

Least Cost financing protects the public purse.  Our money.  Seems prudent, don't you think??

Get Goldman Sachs, A.G. Edwards, and other involved in the bidding, and there may be tremendous cost savings.

Part of the local connected crony network also involves local bond attorneys and selected accountants who simply re-copy old bond underwriting prospectuses, collect a large fee, and then re-cycle a portion of their fees back to fund other Public Tax Grabs.

It's part of the connected crony network that re-cycles our tax dollars to their bank accounts and then fronts a portion of it for the next Sales Tax or Bond Issue.  

The U.S. Attorney's Office refer to it as "Pay-to-Play".  Mr. Sparks put us into the picture of his $25K Pay-to-Play contribution on the Vision 2025 Sales Tas increase.  When he wasn't selected, he went public.  Remember?

Even with competitive bidding as required by State Law, there are many ways for the local authorities and their connected construction company cronies and associated sub-contractors to rig the bidding.  How?

For instance, what we saw at TAIT over a period of years and years were draconian bidding requirements that were virtually impossible for an HONEST bidder to comply with.

So, under the General's leadership, we saw honest businessmen, contractors, and tradesmen avoid bidding.  As a result, they frequently had only ONE bidder on an airport project.  Guess who?

Why, because their connected-crony bidders could easily bid to the very stringent bid requirements and penalties for one, very simple reason:

They KNEW they would never be held accountable to the contract terms.  The FIX was in.

And, with a multitude of CHANGE ORDERS (Boy they really LOVE change orders at TAIT and at the County), they made back every red cent then some for the seed money they fronted to promote higher sales and bond taxes, again and again and again and again.

Happens every day in:  

The Banana Republic of Tulsa.....

[]

quote:
Easy answer on the Lorton's:

The Lorton's are reportedly principal shareholders of F&M Bank & Trust Co.

An F&M Bank subsidiary received one-half of the Vision 2025 GARVEE Bond underwriting, under a sweet-heart NO-BID award from the County.

The Lorton's do not own F&M, the Davis family does.

quote:
You can guess who received the other 1/2.....A BOK subsidiary called Oppenheimer, that just coincidentally happened to be run by Commissioner Dirty Bob Dick's "DEAR" friend - JOHN PIERCEY.

Currently, the embarrassingly prosperous former city Economic Development Director is the County Bond Underwriting Advisor...........

If it's a county tax, I expect the two financial institutions will divide the spoils and get a total reprise of their non-competitive underwriting award for the Kaiser River Tax.

The one thing you can be sure of if that if you do NOT competitively bid for the bond underwriting, the public cannot be assured that the LEAST COST financing method was obtained.

Least Cost financing protects the public purse. Our money. Seems prudent, don't you think??

Get Goldman Sachs, A.G. Edwards, and other involved in the bidding, and there may be tremendous cost savings.

Part of the local connected crony network also involves local bond attorneys and selected accountants who simply re-copy old bond underwriting prospectuses, collect a large fee, and then re-cycle a portion of their fees back to fund other Public Tax Grabs.

Hey, if George Kaiser and friends wanted to make a buck on this, not donating $111 million dollars would have been a great start, don't you think?

Oh, and Oppenheimer is a massive mutual fund

Other way around, Swake:  

Lorton's are reportedly the principal shareholders at F&M, now.  

On Oppenheimer:  Different Oppenheimer; not the mutual fund.  

It's is/was a bond underwriting firm; it was a BOK division or subsidiary during the Vision 2025 bond underwriting, and John Piercey was running it.

Piercey now reportedly runs something called Capital West.

Even the Lorton's World had an article about the Vision 2025 Bond Underwriting, back 10/10/2003:

//www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=031010_Ne_a1_firms

And, surprise, surprise F&M Bank got the other half of the financing NO-BID sweetheart deal:

"The authority also voted to hire a subsidiary of F & M Bank to assist with the financing.

Wells, Nelson & Associates will also be an investment banker for the bond issuance."

The Lorton's World article goes on to quote:

"Former Edmond Mayor Randel Shadid, now a private attorney, said his city saved "a bunch of money" when officials decided in the early 1990s to test the market prior to issuing bonds.

Like Tulsa County, the Oklahoma City suburb for years used the same bond counsel and bond adviser. Shadid said "there are plenty of people out there that can provide those services that have the expertise. I guarantee you when you get them into a bidding war, it's a feeding frenzy."

Surprised that you missed!

It is so hard to keep track of all the Unindicated Co-Conspirators, but we TRY.

[swake]

Reportedly? Reported by who? KFAQ and DelWacko? His willful lack of accuracy on the radio has him in pretty deep trouble so I would not cite him as any kind of source.

And, two unrelated companies with the exact same name both in the financial services field? Sure, that happens all the time.

I guess all would be good then if I wanted to open a Hot Chocolate shop called Starrbucs?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Two unrelated companies with the exact same name both in the financial services field? Sure, that happens all the time.

You might want to just read the Lorton's World article before your Forum credibility is further corroded by serial inaccuracies and unwarranted personal attacks contrary to the Rules of Deportment of this Forum.....

//http:////www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=031010_Ne_a1_firms

"John Piercey, with Oppenheim, a division of Bank of Oklahoma, said his group will be the banker for the transaction."

[)]