River Plan- Public Infrastructure

[RecycleMichael]

Bricktown Canal...totally artificial.

Comparing the Bricktown Canal in OKC to the Arkansas River in Tulsa is like comparing pine scented air freshener to a forest of pine trees.

[Chris]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates



It was interesting to learn that in the early 20th century, San Antonio officials considered covering over the river as a storm sewer. That's what was done in Tulsa to Elm Creek upstream from Central Park and between Central Park and the river. If we want cozy and inviting along a narrow channel, the Pearl District proposal to run Elm Creek in the open as a canal in the middle of 6th Street may be the best way to make that happen. Someone has had the idea of doing the same thing along the lower stretch of Elm Creek, which would connect 18th and Boston to the River at 21st.

I really like the idea of using Elm Creek to connect downtown and SoBo to the river. That way we could have the dense entertainment type development downtown where it should be and a more parklike feel on the river banks. Does anyone know if they've done any calculations for how much it would cost?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Chris

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates



It was interesting to learn that in the early 20th century, San Antonio officials considered covering over the river as a storm sewer. That's what was done in Tulsa to Elm Creek upstream from Central Park and between Central Park and the river. If we want cozy and inviting along a narrow channel, the Pearl District proposal to run Elm Creek in the open as a canal in the middle of 6th Street may be the best way to make that happen. Someone has had the idea of doing the same thing along the lower stretch of Elm Creek, which would connect 18th and Boston to the River at 21st.

I really like the idea of using Elm Creek to connect downtown and SoBo to the river. That way we could have the dense entertainment type development downtown where it should be and a more parklike feel on the river banks. Does anyone know if they've done any calculations for how much it would cost?

I think you would have the same response as when LaFortune wanted to connect Brookside to the river via Crow Creek. Howls from the surrounding neighborhoods, and costs out the wazoo. Both good ideas though.

[TheArtist]

No I dont think our river is going to have that cosy San Antonio riverwalk, feel. Even the Thames and Seine rivers are too wide for that. But people are still drawn to the water and the things near it. The movement of the water, the reflection of the buildings and lights in it, even the expanse of space looking out over it is nice. We can have attractive waterfront development. Its just naturally going to be different than other places, and that is good imo.

In Paris there is a set of stairs on a high hillside where the Sacre Coeur Basilica is. Its a wide set of stairs just off a square that has shops on either side and the Basilica in back. People love sitting on those steps and looking out over the city. There are places to eat and shop, lots of artists gather there to sell their wares. There is a place like that in Rome as well. People like that combination of a view, people watching and things to do.

It would be great to have that some where in Tulsa. Whatever is built on the west side of the river near downtown can have all of that.

As for hardening the shoreline. Some areas can be where there is urban development right on the river for example. But if you were to go down to the river and walk along it you would find that there is a lot of natural beauty to be seen there. Its different than along other rivers but that imo is what makes it all the more special. We almost need to acknowledge what is there and appreciate the particular natural and unique beauty we have along our river and build on it.

I am reminded of how different places like Santa Fe or Tucson are. They dont try to change the reality of what they have, they embrace it. The buildings are different, even the art is different, everything reflects their heritage and the environment around them. Even the retaining walls are different. I saw some that looked like layers of rock with different colors of strata and rocks poking out of them, or they would have designs and patterns embedded in them.

We could form something culturally unique that reflects our heritage and environment as well. The way we harden the shoreline can reflect that. Rather than any old wall or pile of rocks, make it look like its part of the landscape or something that reflects one of the various prominent threads of our unique heritage.

We can still use the basic form... a view with things to do, people watching, etc. that works the world over, but do it in our own unique way.

[Conan71]

Michael B- You are correct on your assumption about my reference to the the canal in OKC.  

Furthering that though, yes the "Oklahoma River" looks sterile right now, but it's far better than it looked 20 years ago.  They have put in nice wide paths, have a spectacular boat house which is the envy of rowers all over the country, and in another 20 years will likely have some nice mature trees.

I appreciate the natural beaty of a river, but when you drive by in an urban area and it has tall grass & weeds, to me it shows a lack of pride in the asset.  That's just me, but that's why I like streambank stabilization and careful landscaping with native plants and trees along the banks.  It has a more cared for, rather than neglected look.

The reason most cited since the large PR blitz for The Channels was attracting and retaining young people in the city of Tulsa.  Cozy public gathering places with commercial mix is what appears to attract the young professionals to water and gives the city a "hip" factor, not low water dams creating multiple lakes which in reality still won't be any more navigable than they are now.

I'd never heard (or paid close attention when it's been mentioned) of the idea about Elm Creek until I saw it here.  Now there is a good tie in with proposed development on the east side of downtown.

Artist, I much appreciate your citations of other cities and the things that make them the special places they are.  Tulsa is a very, very young city given the heritage and history of Santa Fe, Paris, Rome, London.  Tulsa's identity through the early 1980's was as an oil town.  As of now, it appears we are still trying to figure out what our identity is.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


Cozy public gathering places with commercial mix is what appears to attract the young professionals to water and gives the city a "hip" factor, not low water dams creating multiple lakes which in reality still won't be any more navigable than they are now.

I'd never heard (or paid close attention when it's been mentioned) of the idea about Elm Creek until I saw it here.  Now there is a good tie in with proposed development on the east side of downtown.

Unlike the Crow Creek concept that was mentioned earlier, the Elm Creek canal east of Central Park plan has the enthusiastic support of the neighborhood around 6th & Peoria. It's part of the 6th Street Infill Plan.

John Neas came up with the idea of the Elm Creek connection between 18th & Boston and the river back in 1991. He sent me a sketch of it, which I posted here. He cautioned me to ignore the buildings and closed streets in his concept, all of which could be adjusted to taste. It's the location of the creek and its relationship to the existing street grid and Veterans' Park that's of interest.

Archer Street downtown would be another possible site for reopening a buried creek. Cat Creek runs underground beneath the street.

[Conan71]

Michael, sorry I missed that in your blog in the midst of the Channels rumble.  I have to admit your column and the crosswords are the two main reasons I pick up UTW most every week.  Yeah, okay there's a few other features I read, but I usually don't get to them till after I see what you are onto that week.  I don't check in on your blog that often though.

I hadn't really given so much thought to why the canal in OKC was attractive to me, nor San Antonio until I walked around New River and it hit me what they all had in common.

There's already a hip factor in SoBo and The Pearl and interest from investors.  Of course uncovering a creek through the city presents many challenges.

Perhaps to keep from clouding the River thread we should start a new one on Elm Creek.

[waterboy]

MB, why was the Crow Creek idea discarded? Surely not just the surrounding neighborhood. It seemed that at one point the idea of creeks linking to developement was being considered.

[TheArtist]

From what I recall, it was the neighborhood. Homeowners were saying they didnt want people walking essentially through their backyards day and night. There were threats of lawsuits, wrangling over property rights, where some of the properties actually started and ended, etc. Was this just going to be a trail? Zoned to have shops and restaurants along it thus destroying that part of the neighborhood? etc.

[waterboy]

That's too bad. One small group controlled the destiny of the rest of the city. Bing Thom had that part right. We needed to connect the river to existing trade areas. I would expect any other tributary developments will not even be attempted.

Another infrastructure question. The Channels was unique in its approach to development in that they were the first plan that addressed obvious river issues. One was the installation of cleaning filters on the major storm drains that enter the river and bring with them the debris of neighborhoods and gathering areas. Foam cups, plastic bags, lawn clippings etc.

Has INCOG added this feature to their development plan?

[Conan71]

WB,

I'd like to see what they had in mind for filtration.  It doesn't sound overly practical when we have years like this one.

Having a background in water, the filtration system would be complicated at best.  With the monsoon season we had this summer, it's possible that we could have wound up with severe street flooding due to the volume of water draining to the river and the amount of debris it was carrying.  In order to catch grass clippings, you would be talking about a pretty fine screen or media size.  Even with progressive "filters" that creates the issue of manually needing to clean and maintain a lot of screens at some point.  With the city having to cut back on other services and maintenance over the years, I'm not optimistic about such a system being well maintained.

I don't disagree that it would be a nice addition to help keep the river clean, I'm just concerned about maintenance issues.

[TheArtist]

Yes if you have been to the new pond at Central Park you will see a lot of garbage that gets washed in there after any rain. I was just amazed. I have never thrown anything out of my car and cant imagine why anyone would.  And whenever I walk I try to pick up a piece of trash or two. I dont know how so much garbage seems to "get away" from people.  

However, when I was doing the mural at the Central Center I saw many people come in and volunteer to get the garbage out of the lake area. It was nice to see how many people do care and are willing to take care of the nice things in their area.

I would also like to think that we could grow a foundation or fund that would help maintain our river. The Kaiser plan puts aside some money to continually take care of the part that is being given. Perhaps we could add onto that and create a "Friends of The River Parks Maintenance Fund".  That way we are not relying on fickle tax dollars.

It might be nice to have something like the art fund where any time the city builds a public building with tax dollars it has to set aside a percentage for art. In this case anything the city or county does to the river a percentage would be set aside in a fund to provide for continued maintenance.  

Whats most likely to happen is that river development, parks and private, will go ahead. Then once more people really start getting closer to the river and around it more, businesses start having an interest in it being clear of garbage... THEN they will notice the garbage and will push for something to be done.

[pmcalk]

Though it covers more than just maintenance, the River already has a "friends of the river:"

https://www.riverparks.org/RiverparksFriends/

It may just be me, but I am not real crazy about the dog mascot.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

Though it covers more than just maintenance, the River already has a "friends of the river:"

https://www.riverparks.org/RiverparksFriends/

It may just be me, but I am not real crazy about the dog mascot.

I don't get the point of RPF at all. And the dog just kinda scares me.

[Conan71]

Looking at the RPF web site, brought to mind:

When is the last time anyone used the RP amphitheater?  Maybe I don't listen to the right radio stations to hear of events there, but it's been awhile since I've seen any sort of activity there.

They used to have great concerts.  In the late '80's or early '90's I saw Bruce Hornsby, Moody Blues, and Robert Palmer.