River Plan- Public Infrastructure

[pmcalk]

As this is put forth as a county tax, what are the chances that it could be done through property tax instead of sales tax?  I am not anti-tax, and honestly I would probably end up paying more through my property tax than a sales tax.  I just hate to continue increasing sales tax.  It cuts into the city's potential revenue and it hurts the poor.  I know politicians love to use sales tax, because its incremental, and people don't notice it that much.  But even a modest .04% adds up--if you spend $500 a month on grocercies, you'll end up paying $240 more a year in sales tax.  To me, it just seems more equitable to attach that money to property, which would increase or decrease depending on the value of the land.

[Hometown]

This plan gets Hometown's stamp of approval.  

Only concern is the financing.  Pmcalk's points are on target.  

Also concerned about possible smoke filled back room deals being made on the assembling of land for development on the west side.

Excited about the reference to possible acquisition of (some or all? of) Sinclair property.  Maybe someone somewhere in power will acknowledge that Tulsa's perpetual refinery stink is a problem.

Anyway, things are looking up at the Arkansas.  Now all we have to do is get rid of the animal art.

[NellieBly]

Except for the major intersections, traffic on Riverside will be affected. It already is. When people try to turn left from Riverside into the neighborhood, it can be downright dangerous. If they widen Riverside to include a left turn lane the entire length, that would be a great improvement. 36th street and Riverside is a nightmare.

I would like to see River improvements but there are so many other things in Tulsa that are in dire need, though. Our streets are in deplorable condition. We have abandoned buildings by the score. Our code enforcement is a joke. Tulsa can not afford to continue its policy of patching and deferred maintenance.

I just can't help but think of the old saying...something about lipstick on a pig.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

It cuts into the city's potential revenue and it hurts the poor.

It cuts into potential revenue but creates actual revenue, so that's a wash.

Not to mention, the poor pay a higher percent of property tax that you imagine.  What do you think the owners of apartment buildings or rent houses do when their property tax goes up?  They pass the entire sum on to the renters and use it as an excuse to pad their income a little (trust me).  

Likewise, businesses have to raise prices to cover the additional expense.  If a grocery store's expenses go up they do not take a hit on their bottom line, they raise prices to compensate.  Causing the poor to again pay more for groceries. For sales tax, they are only taxed for the money thee spend.  If they spend less, they inherently are taxed less.

Not arguing one way is better than another, just pointing out the flawed thinking that property do not effect the poor.

[Conan71]

Sorry Nellie, couldn't resist.

[NellieBly]

Hee hee

Don't apologize to me -- I think that's the perfect depiction of Hillary.

[Conan71]

Nellie, what's with the new avatar pic?

[NellieBly]

You like? Just wishful thinking.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by NellieBly

You like? Just wishful thinking.

Yeah, I like being roughed up by the cops every now & then.  Just ask Wilbur. []

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

It cuts into the city's potential revenue and it hurts the poor.

It cuts into potential revenue but creates actual revenue, so that's a wash.

Not to mention, the poor pay a higher percent of property tax that you imagine.  What do you think the owners of apartment buildings or rent houses do when their property tax goes up?  They pass the entire sum on to the renters and use it as an excuse to pad their income a little (trust me).  

Likewise, businesses have to raise prices to cover the additional expense.  If a grocery store's expenses go up they do not take a hit on their bottom line, they raise prices to compensate.  Causing the poor to again pay more for groceries. For sales tax, they are only taxed for the money thee spend.  If they spend less, they inherently are taxed less.

Not arguing one way is better than another, just pointing out the flawed thinking that property do not effect the poor.

Good points, and not something I thought of.  Mostly, I was thinking of the elderly who live on fixed incomes.  Because they can qualify for double homestead, they are less likely to be affected by property tax increase.  I also wonder about the ability of sales tax to really distinguish between an average citizen and the super rich.  After all, there is only so much you can spend on food (and only so much that you can cut back), no matter how much money you have.  The amount you can spend on a house is virtually limitless.

Ultimately, the fairest approach would be a local income tax (coupled with a decrease in sales and property tax).  But I am not holding my breath on that one.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by jtcrissup

I really like this plan (always have...).  

Another idea that may have been tossed around already...Has anyone thought of, or proposed, a simple lock system in the low water dams (specifically the one on Zink Lake)to allow for boats (canoes, rafts, kayaks...no motorized boats) to move through the low water dam into the "Living River"?  I think it would be cool to put in at Zink Lake, paddle around for awhile, go through the dam lock, and then ride the "Tulsa Wave" along the "Living River" down to a designated get out location.  This would be fun to do, and it would be fun to watch as well.

I agree. However, when I have proposed this to INCOG planners, they just laugh. It goes like this-
Me: "We need to make each of the impoundments inter-connected with some sort of method to increase their functionality. So you could take one trip from Sand Springs on the river and end up in Bixby"
Them: "No one has asked for that but you."
Me: "But no one knows they should ask for this feature".
Them: It is too expensive and there is no demand.

If more people kept bringing it up they may pay attention.

[cannon_fodder]

Hey, how about a lock system?  I'd love to sail by Hobie from Tulsa down to the Riverwalk Crossing in Bixby for a beer.  Or paddle... whatever.

Imagine how cool it would be to see a sail boat on the river?  That should sell them Waterboy.  No matter how much it costs, think of the post cards.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Hey, how about a lock system?  I'd love to sail by Hobie from Tulsa down to the Riverwalk Crossing in Bixby for a beer.  Or paddle... whatever.

Imagine how cool it would be to see a sail boat on the river?  That should sell them Waterboy.  No matter how much it costs, think of the post cards.

What's the bridge clearance on a Hobie?  I might just have to buy one.  Of course it might suck beating to windward going back up river against the current. []

[waterboy]

Here's the kicker. OKC has locks on their fake river. I'm more into paddling at the moment but at 57,000cfs its more like going along for the ride downstream and forget about going upstream.

[Conan71]

I watched one of my daughter's rowing practices in an 8 hull when we had 20-25 kt. winds out of the south and a strong current coming down river on the Arkansas a few weeks ago.  They were pretty beat by the time they had gone back up channel.

Are you coming to lunch w/ us on Tues?