River Plan- Public Infrastructure

[pfox]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

As this is put forth as a county tax, what are the chances that it could be done through property tax instead of sales tax?  I am not anti-tax, and honestly I would probably end up paying more through my property tax than a sales tax.  I just hate to continue increasing sales tax.  It cuts into the city's potential revenue and it hurts the poor.  I know politicians love to use sales tax, because its incremental, and people don't notice it that much.  But even a modest .04% adds up--if you spend $500 a month on grocercies, you'll end up paying $240 more a year in sales tax.  To me, it just seems more equitable to attach that money to property, which would increase or decrease depending on the value of the land.

I think you'd have to change state law to do this Pmcalk.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I watched one of my daughter's rowing practices in an 8 hull when we had 20-25 kt. winds out of the south and a strong current coming down river on the Arkansas a few weeks ago.  They were pretty beat by the time they had gone back up channel.

Are you coming to lunch w/ us on Tues?

I'll try.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

As this is put forth as a county tax, what are the chances that it could be done through property tax instead of sales tax?  I am not anti-tax, and honestly I would probably end up paying more through my property tax than a sales tax.  I just hate to continue increasing sales tax.  It cuts into the city's potential revenue and it hurts the poor.  I know politicians love to use sales tax, because its incremental, and people don't notice it that much.  But even a modest .04% adds up--if you spend $500 a month on grocercies, you'll end up paying $240 more a year in sales tax.  To me, it just seems more equitable to attach that money to property, which would increase or decrease depending on the value of the land.

I think you'd have to change state law to do this Pmcalk.

You can fund capital improvements through a general obligation bond issue. When a G. O. bond issue passes, the property tax rate for the jurisdiction is increased by a sufficient amount to repay the bonds.

Municipalities and school districts use G. O. bond issues all the time. In fact, that was Tulsa's traditional method for funding streets, sewers, etc., until the first Third Penny was passed in 1980.

It may be that counties don't have that authority in state law, but I suspect the reason a G.O. bond issue isn't being discussed is because sales taxes have become the usual way to fund this sort of thing.

[carltonplace]

Kudos to Mr Kaiser. He seems to really want river development and he's willing to put his money forward to promote it. I can tell he has spent a lot of time thinking, dreaming, wishing and listening to come up with a long term solution that is not just a legacy or vanity project for him (The Channels?) but something that Tulsan's will enjoy and utilize long term. Maybe I'm naive but these quotes speak volumes to me:

"I don't know how long the people have been expecting and promised this kind of development," Kaiser said."It's time they get it."

"The entire plan includes things the public has been saying for years that they want to have and things are absolutely necessary elements for the river to make it physically attractive and a natural gathering spot for people," Kaiser said.

"It's important to bring people to the river not just to run a couple of miles and then go home, but to spend the day, walk across the bridges to logical areas where there are logical activities on the other side," Kaiser said.

"If you're going to do a prudent development of a new area," Kaiser said, "you want to assure you have all of the land you may need for future purposes."

" The goal of the project is to follow traditional public patterns, and not reshape the way people use the area", Kaiser said.

Kaiser said River Parks will not be commercialized by the amenities created at the gathering spots. He also said those amenities will vary from one spot to another.

Kaiser said the private sector also wants to provide "connectors" tying the river to downtown through Centennial Walk, a historic walking route through downtown already funded with Vision 2025 money.

The goal would be to create a "visible portal" to the river where there is common signage, sidewalk material and lighting, Kaiser said.

"We want to lead people to the river," he said.
He is already funding a trails project on both sides of the river and pledging another $100 million if we approve this tax, and I'd bet that there is more to come.

I'm sold.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

As this is put forth as a county tax, what are the chances that it could be done through property tax instead of sales tax?  I am not anti-tax, and honestly I would probably end up paying more through my property tax than a sales tax.  I just hate to continue increasing sales tax.  It cuts into the city's potential revenue and it hurts the poor.  I know politicians love to use sales tax, because its incremental, and people don't notice it that much.  But even a modest .04% adds up--if you spend $500 a month on grocercies, you'll end up paying $240 more a year in sales tax.  To me, it just seems more equitable to attach that money to property, which would increase or decrease depending on the value of the land.

I think you'd have to change state law to do this Pmcalk.

I thought the county could use property tax for revenue, just not the city.  Why would you need to change state law?

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Kudos to Mr Kaiser. He seems to really want river development and he's willing to put his money forward to promote it. I can tell he has spent a lot of time thinking, dreaming, wishing and listening to come up with a long term solution that is not just a legacy or vanity project for him (The Channels?) but something that Tulsan's will enjoy and utilize long term. Maybe I'm naive but these quotes speak volumes to me:

"I don't know how long the people have been expecting and promised this kind of development," Kaiser said."It's time they get it."

"The entire plan includes things the public has been saying for years that they want to have and things are absolutely necessary elements for the river to make it physically attractive and a natural gathering spot for people," Kaiser said.

"It's important to bring people to the river not just to run a couple of miles and then go home, but to spend the day, walk across the bridges to logical areas where there are logical activities on the other side," Kaiser said.

"If you're going to do a prudent development of a new area," Kaiser said, "you want to assure you have all of the land you may need for future purposes."

" The goal of the project is to follow traditional public patterns, and not reshape the way people use the area", Kaiser said.

Kaiser said River Parks will not be commercialized by the amenities created at the gathering spots. He also said those amenities will vary from one spot to another.

Kaiser said the private sector also wants to provide "connectors" tying the river to downtown through Centennial Walk, a historic walking route through downtown already funded with Vision 2025 money.

The goal would be to create a "visible portal" to the river where there is common signage, sidewalk material and lighting, Kaiser said.

"We want to lead people to the river," he said.
He is already funding a trails project on both sides of the river and pledging another $100 million if we approve this tax, and I'd bet that there is more to come.

I'm sold.

yeah, all we need are 4 more kaisers and then they won't have to come begging for money.

[TheArtist]

So whats this about? From the TW, " County Commissioner Fred Perry said. "It remains to be seen if the river plan is going to go to a vote of the people or not."  

Is this thing already dead?

[Chris]

I sure hope not!

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk
But even a modest .04% adds up--if you spend $500 a month on groceries, you'll end up paying $240 more a year in sales tax.  

I think your math is wrong.

It would only be an additional $24 a year.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk
But even a modest .04% adds up--if you spend $500 a month on groceries, you'll end up paying $240 more a year in sales tax.  

I think your math is wrong.

It would only be an additional $24 a year.

I have never claimed that math is one of my strengths.

[RecycleMichael]

The total sales tax burden does add up. The current 8.517% is slightly more than one/twelve of a dollar.

If you spend 500 dollars a month on groceries, you pay just over 500 dollars a year in sales tax.

Eat twelve months then fast for a month.

[RecycleMichael]

The City of Tulsa gets and uses two of those eight and a half cents to pay for police, fire, parks, etc.

Two cents does add up in your wallet or purse, but it takes lots of us to pay for the services we want.

It costs about 100,000 dollars to pay and equip a policeman for a year. That means we have to spend five million dollars a year on groceries to pay for each officer.

You want more police (or fire or parks personnel)...go shopping in Tulsa.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Hey, how about a lock system?  I'd love to sail by Hobie from Tulsa down to the Riverwalk Crossing in Bixby for a beer.  Or paddle... whatever.

Imagine how cool it would be to see a sail boat on the river?  That should sell them Waterboy.  No matter how much it costs, think of the post cards.

Having sailed many a Hobie and Sailboard in moving water, including the river at Zink lake and in others such as the North Platt River in Nebraska, the Columbia River at Hood River Oregon (aka "the George")... moving water and sailing is not as fun as it sounds... put the wind and flow opposite and you'll have quite a ride... not to mention short tacking till your arms fall off!

Oh and bridge clearence for a Hobie 16 is 28'

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

So whats this about? From the TW, " County Commissioner Fred Perry said. "It remains to be seen if the river plan is going to go to a vote of the people or not."  

Is this thing already dead?

So we won't be given a chance to vote on it?

[cannon_fodder]

Clearance on my 18 would be something like 32', so not a real option.  Just dangling something pretty in their face...