Good Bye Civic Center

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by ifsandbuts

"...Mayor, who decided her first day in office that City Hall was moving."

That's a bad thing? I think an awful lot of people walk into that building for the first time and think City Hall should be moved.

Thank goodness she wasn't yet another elected official who walked into a ridiculously ugly, non-functional, poorly planned, depresssing, unhealthy, unwelcoming building and just assumed that was all Tulsa deserved or was capable of.

I've said this before and will say it again: Have any of you who are defending the current City Hall actually spent any amount of time there? I have, literally, NEVER seen a City Hall as bad as Tulsa's, in any size community I have ever been in. It was an ugly, non-functional piece of crap building when it was built -- renovation ain't gonna fix that.

I actually have no problem with the move.  I don't believe you bring people on board with your ideas by, in this case, using a non-independent consultant.  Using one who is truly independent eliminates people who may question the consultant.

I just find moving city hall so two faced on the part of the city.  How long have you heard the city is broke, there is no wiggle room in the budget and no money available for employee pay raises.  Yet we seem to have found $62,000,000+ in wiggle room for a new building.  Funny how there is no money until you find something you want to buy, then there seems to be plenty.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by ifsandbuts

"...Mayor, who decided her first day in office that City Hall was moving."

That's a bad thing? I think an awful lot of people walk into that building for the first time and think City Hall should be moved.

Thank goodness she wasn't yet another elected official who walked into a ridiculously ugly, non-functional, poorly planned, depresssing, unhealthy, unwelcoming building and just assumed that was all Tulsa deserved or was capable of.

I've said this before and will say it again: Have any of you who are defending the current City Hall actually spent any amount of time there? I have, literally, NEVER seen a City Hall as bad as Tulsa's, in any size community I have ever been in. It was an ugly, non-functional piece of crap building when it was built -- renovation ain't gonna fix that.

I actually have no problem with the move.  I don't believe you bring people on board with your ideas by, in this case, using a non-independent consultant.  Using one who is truly independent eliminates people who may question the consultant.

I just find moving city hall so two faced on the part of the city.  How long have you heard the city is broke, there is no wiggle room in the budget and no money available for employee pay raises.  Yet we seem to have found $62,000,000+ in wiggle room for a new building.  Funny how there is no money until you find something you want to buy, then there seems to be plenty.

What are you talking about?  The city spends money every month for a whole bunch of buildings, some of these buildings are going to need expensive repairs and updating, the City Hall for one. Those repairs and updating are going to cost money. From what I gather the city doesnt even own some of the buildings it uses and pays to use each month.  So rather than paying monthly for several buildings and to spend money fixing the old ones they are getting a new one with those funds, and hopefully saving even more money from being together in one spot.

You have an old run down house, your paying 800dollars a month mortgage or rent on. You find out its gonna cost 20,000 dollars to repair the roof, plus the house has mold damage lol. You are barely able to afford to pay the other bills, gas, electric, cable, (roads, school, police)  You find that there is a new house down the street that costs 750 a month to buy and its more energy efficient. Is it better to stay in the old house or go for the new one? Or do you say, "How can we find the money to pay for it when we can barely afford to pay the bills in this old one?"  How could you afford not to if you would be saving money by purchasing the new one?

[Hometown]

The Mayor that Destroyed Civic Center

Once upon a time in a fabled emerald city known to one and all as the oil capital of the world, citizens and leaders joined together to create a great public space for a great Modern city named Tulsa.  

Magnificent buildings for the people clustered around a grand central plaza where the citizens of Tulsa always knew they would be welcomed.

In gleaming Modern buildings that reflected the optimism of the time, the people of Tulsa could come to one place and find their county court, the city hall, their municipal courts and police headquarters.  The citizens could conduct business with the city and enjoy an afternoon program at the city library or dash across the street to do business at the federal courts and the post office.  Small business owners enjoyed the convenience of having the state building close by.

And at the center of it all stood a grand plaza, a space for the people to a take break during jury duty, to linger on a warm spring day with a brown bag lunch, enjoy a smoke, or just watch people as they go about their business with the government.  

It is also a space that has seen the people of Tulsa gather to protest, to light a candle and say a prayer that our government will do the right thing.

Before the Destruction



















Mayor Godzilla Does Her Thing

Then one day the mayor of Tulsa, who up until then had been a fine new mayor, decided that the city had to purchase shiny, new corporate headquarters.  She wanted a glass and chrome kind of place.  The mayor didn’t want to spend the money it would take to maintain Tulsa’s investment in civic center.  She wanted to abandon the old digs and sell the old Modern city hall to a hotel developer.  She knew she was talking about the end of Civic Center.  In a dreamlike sequence, the Mayor became a horrible Godzilla creature dancing a hideous dance of destruction, waving her awful tail and leveling the great buildings we had inherited from our fathers.

[sportyart]

This is nothing new, this will be our fourth new city hall. Speaking for the younger generation....YES PLEASE MOVE!!! I avoid civic center at all costs. I say move city hall, move the courthouse and move the library. Civic center is old, rundown, and needs extensive and expensive work to be done. The I think is the best move and the best thing to show off to other cities, that we reduce, reuse, recycle and close the loop.  The construction of the building itself cost more then what the city is buying it for, this a true value when the cost of building a new building would cost huge numbers. And it’s not like the construction of a new civic center is not possible around the new city hall.

If people are worried about renting out space, why not move the county court/offices into the building as well. Kill two sick birds with one stone.

[TheArtist]

Now I really love the architecture of the Library.  I would love to see a new one, but the old building should definitely be protected, it very much represents its time and a particular style. Does need some tlc, some retro" updating to make it fresh and even trendy and cool could easily be done and I just wish people could imagine that and do more of it.   However that plaza........ look at that third pic, there is cement, brick, some sort of hexagonal stuff, etc. its a horrid mess.  Not to mention no greenery or working fountains etc.

The worst thing you can do to a building, or plaza, that is "out of date" is try to mix in the prevailing style of the moment. It ends up looking like a jumbled mess.  Either bring it back to the way it was or add to it with some contemporary, retro elements of its own style. The 50s style is back in now to stay as a classic style. If it wasnt perfect when it was built, rather than totally scrap it, enhance it and make it better but with a similar style.

I still think city hall should move though lol.

[swake]

I understand the need for a new library, but it is a good building and would make for instance a good modern art museum. That is the one building in the whole complex that should be saved.

[sgrizzle]

I see different things in the pictures. I see multiple fountains that don't work, motor barricades put up because the plaza is a security risk and what looks like a guy peeing off of the gathering area by the library.

I agree that the library is a possible keeper as a reused building, but the library needs to move. The space is far too limited in that building. Plus they don't get as many patrons as they should because people don't like parking under the civic plaza at night.

[waterboy]

I love the Library building. It should be saved and reused possibly as a museum.

The plaza is incredibly hot during the summer making it practically uninhabitable for all but transients and those who have to be there. I agree that it represents an age, a period of time when we all thought George Jetson's lifestyle would be our future. By saving the library and part of the plaza we can save some of that fantasy.

But the municipal building is nothing special. We have to be open to change. Keep re-formulating our city identity. Its not the oil capitol anymore and George Jetson's vision is cartoonish.  I keep remembering the beautiful historic hotel in NYC that was destroyed for progress. Was it the Vanderbilt? Gorgeous Victorian building. It was done without much thought to develop the Twin Towers. And life goes on.

[RecycleMichael]

I want to push the button that blows up city hall.

I would be willing to buy lottery tickets for the chance.

[Conan71]

A lot of people voted for Mayor Taylor because they wanted a "CEO" to run the city.

She operates it just like a corporate CEO, very opaque what is happening at the top, and now she wants a shiny new HQ building.

Personally, with the savings involved and if it gets rid of our embarrasing City Hall, I'm all for it.

I did hear something on the radio this morning that there may be consideration to "lease" the new city hall or maybe I heard wrong.

[NCTulsan]

The (1) concept of a "civic center" and (2) the appearance of Tulsa's current civic center are two different issues here.  I totally agree with Hometown on the concept of having a civic center which brings together various levels of government and services to one sub-region of downtown.  I find it very interesting that in this forum of allegedly enlightened Tulsans, there has been very little talk of what could be done to improve the appearance of our Civic Center.

Personally I would like to see the plaza deck removed and continue 5th Street and Elwood Avenue through the superblock with limited on-street parking that could be closed-off during potential special events. The lower levels of the police building and City Hall could be re-designed to address the lower level as their new "front doors".  And landscaping would soften the overall appearance.

To move City Hall to a whole other part of downtown may save money, but it just doesn't feel right for a public office building.  Nor does the architecture of the building reflect good public architecture .... it's corporate architecture.

[Hometown]

Okay I think these buildings have merit but I’m obviously not going to change a lot of minds today.  What I will point out is the bric-a-brac that people tore off of their Victorians trying to give them a smooth Modern look.  With time it was the bric-a-brac that people came to love in Victorians.  Our tastes will change and we will once more find Modern attractive.  Probably long after Tulsa has torn down most of her Modern buildings.  This is a cycle that happens over and over.  And we have a very bad record in this regard.

But in the meantime NCTulsan’s point about separating the esthetics of Modern buildings from an appreciation for a major urban facility like a civic center is very important.

I’m not sure a lot of you love the Petroleum Exposition Building at the Fairgrounds but you certainly wouldn’t want to tear down the Fairgrounds because you don’t like that building.

Tell me, where else can Tulsans congregate downtown?  Short of roping off a street, there is nothing that compares to Civic Center.  Because Tulsa has been led by people without the imagination to bring Civic Center to life with brown bag lunches, free concerts, open air art shows, or a weekly farmer’s market, doesn’t mean that we should throw away this enormous investment.

Anyone out there that finds there are too many bums or disturbing homeless people in the Civic Center area just isn't cut out to live in a contemporary American city.  The kind of White Bread environment you are seeking is strictly a suburban phenomenon and you are not going to be happy in any city.  

Now, I know Federal Buildings are built to withstand riots.  The proposed City Hall certainly does not offer any security along those lines.  Indeed, I doubt if you could get much of a crowd assembled outside the proposed City Hall.  It has no public spaces.  And I don’t know if the gamut of citizens that do business in government buildings is going to be welcomed in the corporate environment of that area.  I doubt that the buttoned-up Type A crowd is going to take to just plain folks hanging around.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Tell me, where else can Tulsans congregate downtown?  Short of roping off a street, there is nothing that compares to Civic Center.  Because Tulsa has been led by people without the imagination to bring Civic Center to life with brown bag lunches, free concerts, open air art shows, or a weekly farmer’s market, doesn’t mean that we should throw away this enormous investment.

All of the above has been tried at one time or another, other than the Farmer's Market concept (at least I'm not aware of the FM concept).  The first Mayfest was in the CC plaza.  

Obviously, it's not that great a place to congregate, otherwise, all of the above things would still happen at the CCP.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Tell me, where else can Tulsans congregate downtown?  Short of roping off a street, there is nothing that compares to Civic Center.  Because Tulsa has been led by people without the imagination to bring Civic Center to life with brown bag lunches, free concerts, open air art shows, or a weekly farmer’s market, doesn’t mean that we should throw away this enormous investment.

All of the above has been tried at one time or another, other than the Farmer's Market concept (at least I'm not aware of the FM concept).  The first Mayfest was in the CC plaza.  

Obviously, it's not that great a place to congregate, otherwise, all of the above things would still happen at the CCP.

I went to the first couple of "Mayfests". Called Jubilee '73 or something equally clever. They were on main street. One of them back in the early ninenties was on the CC however and it worked just fine. Heard Jerry Jeff Walker along with a pretty good (but redneck) crowd.

NC has a good idea with eliminating the plaza level. I just don't think the municipal building is anything special.

However, the criticisms of the new building being more corporate in nature are certainly valid. No place to assemble or demonstrate either for that matter. But assuming we make a judgement that the entire plaza should be rehabbed instead of sold off, how could you pay for that? Increase taxes? Sell that to the public!

[pfox]

From an urban design perspective, Tulsa's Civic Plaza is a typical example of late 50's/60's thinking on public architecture.  Government center in Boston is another example that is almost universally derided as an urban planning and urban design disaster.  Far from providing a democratic, pedestrian friendly gathering place, these plazas actually discourage free assembly.  

From the brutalist architecture of the convention center, to the tilt up agregate walls of the police and municipal courts building, the civic plaza is a most unappealing place to sit, walk, or be.  The library and the Francis Campbell Council building are it's most redeeming features, but the library is long outdated for functions of a modern library. City hall's public entrace is not on civic plaza as you'd expect, but below "ground" level in a dark, musty garage.  The sloped sides of the planters prevent any resting or sitting, the fountain is empty because it leaks, and the county courthouse has so much mold in it, one of the judges who presides there considered filing suit recently.  By the way, a large portion of our "paper" county records are kept in the basement of that building.  If the Belvedere flooded because of the water table...you get the point.