Good Bye Civic Center

[swake]

The building in Brazila is a good building, no doubt. Compare it to our city hall, really. And I too like The Central Library, but the county building is bad and city hall is much worse.

And just look at the photos of our public space. These are photos of a massive and complete failure of a public space, and water in the fountain would do nothing to change that.

The fact the 5th Street is cut off is not a positive factor, the dead end of that street into nothingness is a large reason for the lack of use of the space, that and it’s moonscape quality. And as bad as the above ground portion of the civic center is, it is the best of the space, go under where people park and actually enter buildings, those should be some great photos.

[waterboy]

Those pics were taken in the dead of winter with harsh sun and probably on a Sunday, giving it a ghost town appearance. HT, not everyone has your imaginative powers. Someone P-Shop them and show us what they could look like with some steam cleaning, bushes, trees, fountains and live bodies. Or with the plaza level opened up to multiple levels leading to parking.

Even Maple Ridge looks rough during the winter in places.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Tulsa’s Civic Center reminds me of Brasilia.  You know, the Modern capital of Brazil.  

Yeah, me too.  Brasilia's architecture is a striking representation of mid-twentieth century Modernism.  

And it's an abject failure.

The buildings are cold.  There are no gathering areas.  The workers go to work and then go home, and do not mingle, linger, or gather.  The entire area, built for the convenience of the automobile, completely discourages any sort of pedestrian activity.  Civic demonstrations, recreation, and tourism all take place elsewhere, in Rio or other urban areas.  The promise of Modernism failed Brasilia and it failed Tulsa.

http://www.macalester.edu/courses/geog61/jmoersch/reality.html

We have an opportunity not to be stuck with crumbling, failed, outdated, embarassing, non-functioning city offices.  Why not take it?

[Renaissance]

Oh also, they can't put water in the fountain because of structural defects in the parking garage beneath.  Lovely.

[Double A]

Been watching the UED, turns out the city will have to spend 500,000 just to arrange parking for the city employees. The city will have to provide shuttles too. Meanwhile average citizens will have to walk blocks to get to city hall after being at the mercy of private surface parking operators who will undoubtedly price gouge the average citizen who needs to visit city hall because of the limited parking options. This sounds like a great recipe to encourage more tear downs downtown to provide increasingly profitable private surface parking.

[cannon_fodder]

In that area, I dont think tear downs are even an option.  After all, the Blue Dome is the only area utilizing most of its buildings.  If they evict people to make surface parking I may go on a bombing campaign.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Oh also, they can't put water in the fountain because of structural defects in the parking garage beneath.  Lovely.

Deferred maintenance is the reason for this. When you neglect to take care of something it deteriorates. If you are so concerned about structural defects on a building that been around for 30 years, why do advocate moving to a new building with structural defects in the curtain wall and the roof(both of which have failed). You getting one of these sweetheart no bid contracts being pushed as part of this deal?

[TulsaSooner]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Been watching the UED, turns out the city will have to spend 500,000 just to arrange parking for the city employees. The city will have to provide shuttles too. Meanwhile average citizens will have to walk blocks to get to city hall after being at the mercy of private surface parking operators who will undoubtedly price gouge the average citizen who needs to visit city hall because of the limited parking options. This sounds like a great recipe to encourage more tear downs downtown to provide increasingly profitable private surface parking.

You have a link to that?  I've never heard either of those scenarios.  There is a parkiing garage on the corners to the NE and NW of OTC.  There is a surface lot a metered spots to the SE of OTC.  I'd think those would be able to accomodate employee and citizen parking.  If it can't, there is supposedly more than enough parking for employees within a 2-3 minute walk of OTC....those are the numbers I've heard discussed when employee parking is brought up.

[TulsaSooner]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

why do advocate moving to a new building with structural defects in the curtain wall and the roof(both of which have failed). You getting one of these sweetheart no bid contracts being pushed as part of this deal?

As I understand it, both of these issues were resolved in the last year or so with the warranty/warranties transferrable to the new owner of OTC.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Oh also, they can't put water in the fountain because of structural defects in the parking garage beneath.  Lovely.

Deferred maintenance is the reason for this. When you neglect to take care of something it deteriorates. If you are so concerned about structural defects on a building that been around for 30 years, why do advocate moving to a new building with structural defects in the curtain wall and the roof(both of which have failed). You getting one of these sweetheart no bid contracts being pushed as part of this deal?

No.  I just want my city government moved out of its current sh!tbucket headquarters so I can hold my head up when I point out City Hall to visitors.

[Conan71]

quote:
"Deferred maintenance is the reason for this. When you neglect to take care of something it deteriorates. If you are so concerned about structural defects on a building that been around for 30 years, why do advocate moving to a new building with structural defects in the curtain wall and the roof(both of which have failed). You getting one of these sweetheart no bid contracts being pushed as part of this deal?"

Cool.  Trade one building with fleas for a better looking building with fleas.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaSooner

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Been watching the UED, turns out the city will have to spend 500,000 just to arrange parking for the city employees. The city will have to provide shuttles too. Meanwhile average citizens will have to walk blocks to get to city hall after being at the mercy of private surface parking operators who will undoubtedly price gouge the average citizen who needs to visit city hall because of the limited parking options. This sounds like a great recipe to encourage more tear downs downtown to provide increasingly profitable private surface parking.

You have a link to that?  I've never heard either of those scenarios.  There is a parkiing garage on the corners to the NE and NW of OTC.  There is a surface lot a metered spots to the SE of OTC.  I'd think those would be able to accomodate employee and citizen parking.  If it can't, there is supposedly more than enough parking for employees within a 2-3 minute walk of OTC....those are the numbers I've heard discussed when employee parking is brought up.

Watch the city council UED committee meeting rebroadcast on TGOV. I am so thankful that our Councilors ask questions and don't just cheerlead. This whole plan is deeply flawed.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by TulsaSooner

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Been watching the UED, turns out the city will have to spend 500,000 just to arrange parking for the city employees. The city will have to provide shuttles too. Meanwhile average citizens will have to walk blocks to get to city hall after being at the mercy of private surface parking operators who will undoubtedly price gouge the average citizen who needs to visit city hall because of the limited parking options. This sounds like a great recipe to encourage more tear downs downtown to provide increasingly profitable private surface parking.

You have a link to that?  I've never heard either of those scenarios.  There is a parkiing garage on the corners to the NE and NW of OTC.  There is a surface lot a metered spots to the SE of OTC.  I'd think those would be able to accomodate employee and citizen parking.  If it can't, there is supposedly more than enough parking for employees within a 2-3 minute walk of OTC....those are the numbers I've heard discussed when employee parking is brought up.

Watch the city council UED committee meeting rebroadcast on TGOV. I am so thankful that our Councilors ask questions and don't just cheerlead. This whole plan is deeply flawed.

Deeply flawed is putting it very nicely.  I too am thankful the councilors have been asking questions.  Let's just hope they continue to question as the vote approaches later this week.  There are FAR too many unanswered questions and misrepresentations for this thing to go forward.  Just to name the biggest one:  Why won't the mayor make the entire Staubach study public?  Post it on the City's website already.  What is she hiding?   (I have twice made inquiries to the "Mayor's Action Line"on this subject and have yet to receive ANY response.  Not even an acknowledgment.)

[Double A]

Oh yeah, that "objective, credible" study that was done with the promise of a pay off to the company if the sale takes place.

[Hometown]

Every one is sort of dancing around the issue of does Tulsa need a civic center?  Does our civic center have any value to Tulsa?

Tulsa’s City Hall is very much cut from the same cloth as most of Tulsa’s towers, including her two tallest towers.  It is a style descended from Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and his strict, minimalist vein of Modernism.  

Our city hall is a significant example of Modernism.  It appears to rise out of and then float on the surface of the plaza.  There is a sense of weightlessness achieved by heavier floors sitting on the smaller glass floor at the plaza level.  There is a real gravity defying mystery with city hall and the nearby council building.  A kind of “how did they do that.”

Now here’s how fashion works.  A style has its first life span and people eventually grow tired of it.  We move on.  With time we take another look at past styles and we reevaluate and revise history and we find that once again our eye is drawn to a style.  After a few more years of the clutter of post-Modernism even Tulsans are going to be crying for the clean well lit open spaces of Modernism.  It has already happened in painting.

Sometimes I think Tulsa has gone crazy:

We are talking about incurring significant debt to move away from an outstanding civic center into a building that is not suited for public life.  

We are talking about diminishing and privatizing a wonderful civic center plaza while we also talk about creating spaces downtown that invite walking and encourage public gatherings.

We whine about needed a luxury hotel near the Arena when The Magnificent Old Mayo is being redeveloped for the untried proposition of loft housing.

Look, even an old cow town like Fort Worth can become a world class city.  They have used federal money to create a civic center while we can’t wait to tear down ours.

I realize that you probably had to live through the convulsions of life in Tulsa over the past few decades to understand the various rationalizations that have taken us to this apparent state of insanity.

In a recent newspaper article a man in public works was talking about Taylor’s concern with beautification in advance of the opening of the Arena.  Ms. Taylor, let me tell you what the most rich women do when they want to gussy things up.  They hire the best experts and let them do what they do best.

When all is said and done, Ms. Taylor, you risk being the mayor that destroyed Tulsa’s civic center – period.

Now do you think you folks could find a little substance in your pronouncements of ugly by offering some reasons.

Swake, If you don’t understand the importance of a street’s terminus then it is a good thing you opted of architecture.