Yoot Pastor Shoots Petty Criminal

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

If the only tool you carry is a hammer everything looks pretty much like a nail.  I contend the Pastor wanted a confrontation, he wanted to catch some heathen stealing and the punks obliged him.  There are so many other ways to catch a criminal than hope for a confrontation with an unarmed man.

Maybe the Pastor ought to teach his boys how to fight and he would not 'have' to use deadly force to protect them against unarmed criminals.

right on Tim. He set up a situation where the end result was likely violence. Go looking for frogs at 2am on a pond and you'll find them.
That is why he carried the gun. He is a trained reserve officer and knew what he could do. He also should have known that a security guard, guard dog, lighting, pro-active measures could have accomplished the task without bullets.

I know of several kids just west of the river that deface, steal, intimidate, fight and do drugs. They yelled at me from a group one day as I jogged by. I don't know why but I turned and faced them with both hands motioning for them to come over and talk to me as I kept running. I figured I would do some damage even if they beat me. Curiously, they laughed, and the next few times I've seen them they encourage me. I guess I built street cred! My point is that I am not as big as the youth pastor. I could have come packing with a gun the next run and been secure in shooting them. I chose not to. Protecting your fireworks is not worth killing someone even if its a group of punk-donkey thieves.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

The result is that petty criminals will start carrying guns too and shoot back. We just raised the level of violence.

Do naive much?

What's more naive?  The idea that criminals who wouldn't normally carry guns, will now.  Or that the only effect of "concealed carry" on criminals is deterrence?

It will only take a few times for the wrong guy to be shot, before someone will take notice.  Then it'll be revenge killings encouraging revenge killings, as opposed to concealed carry encouraging concealed carry.

Deterrence.  And for those deterrence isn't a concept they get, defense.

What do you think all the shootings we are reading about in north Tulsa are?  Retaliation for some sort of theft or gang diss.  A lot of small-time thugs can't or won't get a conceal-carry permit, doesn't stop them from getting a gun.  

If I want to defend myself from someone else who does crazy better than I do, I'm going to defend myself with more than a quick wit and two fists.

I guess it would have been preferable to some of you for a gang of thugs to have beaten two un-armed people to death, stolen their property and money, rather than to read about someone using a gun to protect his own life and someone else and to repel crime.

Sorry, I'm not biting on that one.  You are talking about a culture of people (criminals, regardless of race) for whom guns are indigenous to their daily life-style.  People legally carrying guns sure as hell doesn't inspire them to get more, but might make them think twice before they try to jack another fireworks stand.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

If the only tool you carry is a hammer everything looks pretty much like a nail.  I contend the Pastor wanted a confrontation, he wanted to catch some heathen stealing and the punks obliged him.  There are so many other ways to catch a criminal than hope for a confrontation with an unarmed man.

Maybe the Pastor ought to teach his boys how to fight and he would not 'have' to use deadly force to protect them against unarmed criminals.

Unless you had Jackie Chan and Jet Lie running the stand, 2 guys are not going to hold off a mob. Plus, he didn't open fire until after they were already beating up the other guy. I don't see how the pastor is picking a fight when the people came into the secured area and started beating up the kid first.

[tulsacyclist]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71



Deterrence.  And for those deterrence isn't a concept they get, defense.

What do you think all the shootings we are reading about in north Tulsa are?  Retaliation for some sort of theft or gang diss.  A lot of small-time thugs can't or won't get a conceal-carry permit, doesn't stop them from getting a gun.  

If I want to defend myself from someone else who does crazy better than I do, I'm going to defend myself with more than a quick wit and two fists.

I guess it would have been preferable to some of you for a gang of thugs to have beaten two un-armed people to death, stolen their property and money, rather than to read about someone using a gun to protect his own life and someone else and to repel crime.

Sorry, I'm not biting on that one.  You are talking about a culture of people (criminals, regardless of race) for whom guns are indigenous to their daily life-style.  People legally carrying guns sure as hell doesn't inspire them to get more, but might make them think twice before they try to jack another fireworks stand.

Um.. can we get an amen? I agree 100%.

[mr.jaynes]

Amen, Conan and Waterboy. When it comes to hooligans and punks, it's a matter of getting them to respect you or to fear you-one or the other, and nothing in between; I learned this at an early age, and it's a lesson I've never forgotten. I don't go out looking for trouble, and I'm not one to habitually pick fights, but I won't run from it either. Besides, the whole world is watching. Give in to people like that, you'll be fair game for anyone else. Well, let's see, I've never been mugged or conned or robbed, so I must be doing something right.

[RecycleMichael]

Shoot a few people and hope the word gets out?

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Shoot a few people and hope the word gets out?

I didn't say it quite like that; just because I hold to the Second Amendment, it doesn't mean that I'm "livin' large" or otherwise subscribe to the tenets of the Gangsta lifestyle. I'm just saying that it's better to be a hard target when it comes to violent crime. I do not court trouble, I don't go out picking fights with every Joe Schmoe to make a name for myself. I simply respect the rights of others and require the same in return. But if I'm confrointed with trouble, obviously I'm going to have to deal with that.  

For some people, all you need to do is give them a certain look, and they'll back off; others, you may have to give them a knot or six on the head to get their attention. Either way, you have to show that you're a hard target.

As for "making a name and hope the word gets out," no, that's not what I'm saying either. But you don't want others to get the idea that it's OK to victimize you without a fight.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I guess it would have been preferable to some of you for a gang of thugs to have beaten two un-armed people to death, stolen their property and money, rather than to read about someone using a gun to protect his own life and someone else and to repel crime.

Sorry, I'm not biting on that one.  You are talking about a culture of people (criminals, regardless of race) for whom guns are indigenous to their daily life-style.  People legally carrying guns sure as hell doesn't inspire them to get more, but might make them think twice before they try to jack another fireworks stand.

Did these "criminals" from said "culture" have any weapons?  I haven't heard of any.  

If the youth minister dies because of retaliation, then in a way, he deserved it (in a Christian "eye for a eye" kind of way).  I don't know him from anyone else, don't owe him anything.  Certainly don't owe him any praise for poppin' off.  It wasn't the brightest act.

For criminals, these were kind of dumb.  I think overall, the message has to be, if you're going to rob someone in the country; they're armed, be prepared to slaughter them all.  Or, two birds with one stone.  Kill em all equals no witnesses and an easier event.

[tim huntzinger]

And what lesson did the punks learn: Next time carry your own gat, shoot first. The episode reinforced the idea that might makes right.

'Stand your ground' my buns, someone goes through CLEET and they think they have a license to hunt humans.  The Pastor endangered his charge by his actions, fired randomly into a crowd, and I hope he and the flock are sued for damages.

All because the church was trying to make money by selling explosives.  That is funny!

[Conan71]

Look MC, I'm not even sure how many people comprised this "mob".  Even if it was four on two, the odds weren't with the youth pastor and the 17 y/o who was there with them.  Outnumbering is a "weapon" in itself.  It bred the confidence in that gang that they were going to overrun and beat into submission the two fellows who were watching the fireworks stand and take fireworks and/or money.  They just didn't think they would be faced down with a gun.

Put yourself in that position.  I bet you'd be wishing you had more than a couple of hands and feet to defend yourself from four or five young thugs.

Sorry, but I'm having a problem faulting this guy's actions.  He didn't go looking for trouble, it came to him and he had taken a prudent measure to defend himself, the property, and other person who were entrusted to his care.  This isn't like the subway vigilante in New York (Bernhard Goetz) who took it upon himself to go looking for thugs.  

I'm hardly paranoid and violent crime is pretty low in the neighborhood where I live.  However, crime can be random.  

If I hear breaking window glass or someone trying to force open a door at my house in the middle of the night, that creep is going to stagger out with a few new holes in their body or run out with a fresh load of crap in their underwear.  If someone is willing to break into an occupied house, there is some reason they have the confidence they can do so without consequence and I don't plan on sitting down and having a conversation with them about it over a cup of tea.

[rhymnrzn]

A Christian pastor packing heat: that is Satanic.  He knows the Word of God, and yet consults with none other but himself, like carnal men do, and gets him guns, and trusts in them, and so doing he rejects the counsel of the Lord Jesus Christ.  

I pray God remembers his deeds, and of those who do likewise.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

And what lesson did the punks learn: Next time carry your own gat, shoot first. The episode reinforced the idea that might makes right.

'Stand your ground' my buns, someone goes through CLEET and they think they have a license to hunt humans.  The Pastor endangered his charge by his actions, fired randomly into a crowd, and I hope he and the flock are sued for damages.

All because the church was trying to make money by selling explosives.  That is funny!

He wasn't hunting for anyone.  He was defending property and himself.  If those kids had known there was someone with a gat in there, they would have looked for another place to jack.  It's no more incentive for this guy's buddies to get a gun than listening to gangsta rap.  It might have even scared a few of them straight.

Why should someone be sued for defending his own life?  He didn't start the melee.  Makes zero sense.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by rhymnrzn

A Christian pastor packing heat: that is Satanic.  He knows the Word of God, and yet consults with none other but himself, like carnal men do, and gets him guns, and trusts in them, and so doing he rejects the counsel of the Lord Jesus Christ.  

I pray God remembers his deeds, and of those who do likewise.

Are you saying that it's better to be a victim, and just allow these people to take what they want without meeting with any resistance? You must have lived and continue to live a very sheltered and secure lifestyle indeed! So because he's a minister, he doesn't have the right to defend himself? And since when is self-defense a sin anyway? Show me where in the Bible it says that!

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

[quote
Did these "criminals" from said "culture" have any weapons?  I haven't heard of any.  

If the youth minister dies because of retaliation, then in a way, he deserved it (in a Christian "eye for a eye" kind of way).  I don't know him from anyone else, don't owe him anything.  Certainly don't owe him any praise for poppin' off.  It wasn't the brightest act.

For criminals, these were kind of dumb.  I think overall, the message has to be, if you're going to rob someone in the country; they're armed, be prepared to slaughter them all.  Or, two birds with one stone.  Kill em all equals no witnesses and an easier event.

You know, Michael, we haven't met, but I think we'd get along famously if we did. I do like where you come from on many things. Just not on this.

If this situation happened to you, what would be your reaction? Tell me true: Would you let these little thugs run roughshod on you and your safety and what you're trying to accomplish, or would you stand your ground?

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

And what lesson did the punks learn: Next time carry your own gat, shoot first. The episode reinforced the idea that might makes right.

Hopefully, it scared 'em onto the straight and narrow. Perhaps they'll think twice before trying to pull something like this on anyone else.

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Look MC, I'm not even sure how many people comprised this "mob".  Even if it was four on two, the odds weren't with the youth pastor and the 17 y/o who was there with them.  Outnumbering is a "weapon" in itself.  It bred the confidence in that gang that they were going to overrun and beat into submission the two fellows who were watching the fireworks stand and take fireworks and/or money.  They just didn't think they would be faced down with a gun.

Put yourself in that position.  I bet you'd be wishing you had more than a couple of hands and feet to defend yourself from four or five young thugs.

Sorry, but I'm having a problem faulting this guy's actions.  He didn't go looking for trouble, it came to him and he had taken a prudent measure to defend himself, the property, and other person who were entrusted to his care.  This isn't like the subway vigilante in New York (Bernhard Goetz) who took it upon himself to go looking for thugs.  

I'm hardly paranoid and violent crime is pretty low in the neighborhood where I live.  However, crime can be random.  

If I hear breaking window glass or someone trying to force open a door at my house in the middle of the night, that creep is going to stagger out with a few new holes in their body or run out with a fresh load of crap in their underwear.  If someone is willing to break into an occupied house, there is some reason they have the confidence they can do so without consequence and I don't plan on sitting down and having a conversation with them about it over a cup of tea.

Amen, Conan. You summed it up beautifully as always, and I do mean that!

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

And what lesson did the punks learn: Next time carry your own gat, shoot first. The episode reinforced the idea that might makes right.

'Stand your ground' my buns, someone goes through CLEET and they think they have a license to hunt humans.  The Pastor endangered his charge by his actions, fired randomly into a crowd, and I hope he and the flock are sued for damages.

All because the church was trying to make money by selling explosives.  That is funny!

He wasn't hunting for anyone.  He was defending property and himself.  If those kids had known there was someone with a gat in there, they would have looked for another place to jack.  It's no more incentive for this guy's buddies to get a gun than listening to gangsta rap.  It might have even scared a few of them straight.

Why should someone be sued for defending his own life?  He didn't start the melee.  Makes zero sense.

Conan, you're reading too many newspaper headlines and watching too much inflammatory TV. Gangs, thugs, gats, gangstas, gangs of thugs, ...even (shudder)Rap! Could just be a group of stupid teenage thieves that did what any stupid group does. Resort to the lowest common thought.

This whole thing smells like a load. This is not a small, untrained, 67 year old unexpectedly cornered at Riverparks. This is a large, young, Cleet trained, reserve officer WHO CAME LOOKING FOR TROUBLE! He brought with him another teen. Why? Because he knew these stands get burglarized. He figured he would protect the product with force if necessary and of course it became necessary.

Ever talked to one of these big guys who is used to using firm intimidation as a bouncer, an event security guard or such? I'll take the odds of a 17 yr old, this guy and the knowledge that I have a piece in my back pocket against 4 teenagers. This guy should have known better.

Any money they saved protecting their product with a gun is offset with a possible civil suit. Stupid, simply stupid.

[iplaw]

You guys are crackpots.  I hope you people get the opportunity to exercise your "holy than thou" attitudes when someone is preparing to kick the sh!t out you or one of your kids.  I wonder how you'll enjoy your high horse attitude after a nice beating?  I'll take my chances with a firearm if I'm sitting on cash in the middle of nowhere, especially in Muskogee, thanks...

The best parts of this discussion are the people who think that criminals are suddenly going to start carrying guns, as if this would be a new development in world of criminal activity.

This just devolves into absurdity.  You can make the exact same argument against even fighting back with fists.  Thug attacks kids, and pastor fights back with fists, detering said thug.  Thug learns to take a knife to the next robbery to ensure he wins.

How is that silly scenario any different?  Would you have suggested he allow the idiot to finish with the kid and move onto him next?

You people amaze me.

Reading between the lines from the OP this is nothing more than a pathetic half-a$$ed opportunity to bash a Christian for something the OP feels as "un-Christian."  It has nothing to do with self defense.